That's all you see because that's all you want to see.

Marner didn't miss games because of holding out and he's also not complete dogpoop on the scoresheet. He doesn't deserve even half the heat Nylander got. Nylander actually missed games and then was invisible in the majority of the ones he played in. Nylander legit hurt the team in a big way.
- JohnFergusonJr

Quite the opposite and the stats 100% prove it.

Marner won't continue his poop play 5v5 forever....but if he did he would barely touch 65 points by seasons end.

I am done arguing with you, numerous people on here have shown you the facts and you say its wrong because you say so. Go argue with someone else my time isn't worth your nonsense.

Knee jerk reactions?

Ha.

The anger is pointed towards the big guys, the supporting cast.(Kap, Kerfoot, Moore, Miky) Have all been great considering their value.

Matthews, Marner, Rielly need to bring it. I think the return of Dermott will help Rielly immensely. If it doesn't I don't see Dubas sitting on his hands watching Ceci with Rielly for too much longer.
- Santo_44

What would a buyout on Ceci do for the cap this year? Because they won't be able to trade him.

Let's make it even simpler:

We need him to care more.
- Atomic Wedgie

True, his caresi numbers are pretty bad.

Are there better reactions?


We need the big guys to step up.. I don't think they'll do something now.. maybe in January if the Leafs are still struggling
- PatC80

They need a kick in the ass.

Man up and play well, 11 million dollars a season brings heavy expectations. Just putting a point each game isn't enough.

Spin it any way you want, but as it stands right now, at 5 on 5, Marner isn't doing much. We can speculate how the season will go, but we need him to produce more, now and later on in the season..

We can't compare Nylander to Marner, because Marner makes $4M more than Nylander.
- PatC80

And yet, he creates goals on both the PP and on the PK.

The whole team is struggling 5 on 5, especially against teams like Boston. That's a team issue as much as it's an individual issue because of the style of game they play.

What would a buyout on Ceci do for the cap this year? Because they won't be able to trade him.
- aminnes

We can waive him, and hope a team picks him up.. I guess?

What would a buyout on Ceci do for the cap this year? Because they won't be able to trade him.
- aminnes

by the TDL? I don't think it will take much to trade 1 million of actual dollars to a bottom feeder...

Regardless, Ceci isn't glued to that 2nd pairing. At all.

And yet, he creates goals on both the PP and on the PK.

The whole team is struggling 5 on 5, especially against teams like Boston. That's a team issue as much as it's an individual issue because of the style of game they play.
- JohnFergusonJr

He helped CBJ score a great goal on the PK

His Pts/60 on the PP is fantastic - he's 5th in the league behind Pastrnak, McDavid, Konecny and Stone.

If you give Marner time and space, he's a very effective player. I don't think anyone who's a Leaf fan wants to say he isn't. But at 5v5 right NOW, Marner is not playing hard enough or well enough to be effective. Teams are closing on him quickly, and he's not playing the way he did for much of last year. Part of that can be that Marner needs to have an option. If there are players giving him a clear option, he'll get the pass to them most of the time. Kapanen and Matthews, I don't think, give him good options @ 5v5.

Marner is a better hockey player; in a different draft year he could have easily been a #1 choice. But right now when the play around him is difficult, he's less effective than Nylander in similar situations.
- Monkeypunk

He hasn't looked good 5vs5 no doubt. I have noticed as you said also that they aren't giving him a lot of options. Other teams are closing and he needs an outlet. But it isn't just him, the whole team looks weird and discombobulated. Off the rush they look okay but they can't seem to do anything 5vs5 in terms of setup and basic hockey IQ. All that being said Marner has floated more than I've ever seen also.

And yet, he creates goals on both the PP and on the PK.

The whole team is struggling 5 on 5, especially against teams like Boston. That's a team issue as much as it's an individual issue because of the style of game they play.
- JohnFergusonJr

I think you're missing the point altogether, bud..

Points are one thing.. No one's arguing that Marner won't put up points.. It's his play in general.. Look no further than the shorthanded goal they gave up against CBJ.

Marner needs to be consistently better, same goes for Matthews...

You could be right... With all due respect to Hyman and Dermott, but if we are relying on them to push us over the top, I think we might be in trouble.
- PatC80

They definitely still are in trouble because they have too many guys who do the same thing with the same skills and abilities. For a lack of a better term, they lack diversity.

And the only way to change that is going to be a major trade that involves Nylander clearing cap space as well as providing value to boost the blueline along with some shrewd UFA signings to bring in some sandpaper and/or veterans who aren't kids (frank)ing around and looking to actually win something.

by the TDL? I don't think it will take much to trade 1 million of actual dollars to a bottom feeder...

Regardless, Ceci isn't glued to that 2nd pairing. At all.
- Santo_44

I mean right now. This team is on pace to miss the playoffs, I wouldn't wait around. If buying him out could free a couple million they could make a trade for a superior d man using another winger as they seem to have an abundance of them.

He helped CBJ score a great goal on the PK
- Santo_44

Who helped Kapanen score his short handed goal?

They definitely still are in trouble because they have too many guys who do the same thing with the same skills and abilities. For a lack of a better term, they lack diversity.

And the only way to change that is going to be a major trade that involves Nylander clearing cap space as well as providing value to boost the blueline along with some shrewd UFA signings to bring in some sandpaper and/or veterans who aren't kids (frank)ing around and looking to actually win something.
- JohnFergusonJr

Or, they could trade Ceci, or Barrie or anyone really... Why single out Nylander only?

I think you're missing the point altogether, bud..

Points are one thing.. No one's arguing that Marner won't put up points.. It's his play in general.. Look no further than the shorthanded goal they gave up against CBJ.

Marner needs to be consistently better, same goes for Matthews...
- PatC80

Nah, you people are missing the point. I haven't said Marner has been flawless. There's no doubt he needs to play better but he's not alone. The whole team does. What I'm saying is, Marner at his worst, is still producing. The difference is, you got some people holding grudges because of the contract still who are expecting a lot more as if he's the only one getting paid / not playing well.

Okay. Nylander has 5 pts 5v5 in 155 minutes played, and Marner has 2 in 149 minutes played.

Nylander has 2 goals 5v5 in 155 minutes played and Marner has 0.
- Monkeypunk

At even-strength they both have 5 points. Nylander 2 goals, Marner with 1. 5v5 excludes 4v4 and 3v3 overtime.

Why do they use 5v5 instead of ES? Overtime is kind of important.

Or, they could trade Ceci, or Barrie or anyone really... Why single out Nylander only?
- PatC80

Ceci has negative value. Literally, less than zero. If anybody takes Ceci, it's as a cap dump favor to the Leafs to make a deal work.

Barrie is a pending UFA that they just acquired so nobody is going to want him as a rental because the Leafs themselves are already using him as one. Pretty rare to see a team acquire a rental and then rent him out later in the season.

Nylander provides value which means he gets you more in return. He's young, he has potential and while his contract doesn't work for us because of the rest of offensive guys we have locked up, he works for other teams.

Who helped Kapanen score his short handed goal?
- JohnFergusonJr

And?

clean slate now?

So pathetic

I mean right now. This team is on pace to miss the playoffs, I wouldn't wait around. If buying him out could free a couple million they could make a trade for a superior d man using another winger as they seem to have an abundance of them.
- aminnes

Relax

hutch let a weak shot hit him and go in on the 1st goal.

his giveway led to the 2nd goal.

he literally fell on his his ass on the 3rd goal.

he can't play another game.
- Tumbleweed

he was set for the original shot and the shot did come it change directions on him.
the 2nd goal was just awful but him.
Leafs can't afford anyone else at the moment unless a 3.4 mil+ contract is trade away to make cap room for a descent back up.

And?

clean slate now?

So pathetic


- Santo_44

If Marner didn't screw up on the SHG against, it would have been a different game.

If Marner didn't screw up on the SHG against, it would have been a different game.
- PatC80

He is being paid 11 million dollars.

A good play doesn't erase a brutal play.

Those are the type of standards we apply to players like the Goat and Marincin.

At even-strength they both have 5 points. Nylander 2 goals, Marner with 1. 5v5 excludes 4v4 and 3v3 overtime.

Why do they use 5v5 instead of ES? Overtime is kind of important.
- mpr29

From NHL.com, Marner has been on the ice for 15 goals for, 6 of them on the PP. So there's 9 goals he's been on the ice for that weren't on the PP spread across 5v5, 4v4, 3v3 and 4v5.

Ceci has negative value. Literally, less than zero. If anybody takes Ceci, it's as a cap dump favor to the Leafs to make a deal work.

Barrie is a pending UFA that they just acquired so nobody is going to want him as a rental because the Leafs themselves are already using him as one. Pretty rare to see a team acquire a rental and then rent him out later in the season.

Nylander provides value which means he gets you more in return. He's young, he has potential and while his contract doesn't work for us because of the rest of offensive guys we have locked up, he works for other teams.
- JohnFergusonJr

4 points in 11 games, a +4. CF% of 50.5 and playing 22 minutes a game.. I sure some team looks at those numbers and sees value

He hasn't looked good 5vs5 no doubt. I have noticed as you said also that they aren't giving him a lot of options. Other teams are closing and he needs an outlet. But it isn't just him, the whole team looks weird and discombobulated. Off the rush they look okay but they can't seem to do anything 5vs5 in terms of setup and basic hockey IQ. All that being said Marner has floated more than I've ever seen also.
- aminnes

This is the unsung part of a Hyman or Moore or even Brown when he was doing it. They skate hard to places and take defenders with them. It creates space, and it creates gaps when the defenders realize what they've done and try to close the gaps. That leaves room for Marner to operate. You add in Tavares who goes to the net and also draws a crowd, and it opens up a lot of options - because one of he or Hyman end up open in some facet. I don't think Kapanen or Matthews liked to get into dirty areas so they don't pull too many guys to them (you have to watch Matthews, but you can post up between him and Marner creating more d-zone coverage). It's really effective when both the centre and the other winger are drawing players to them and are moving. I think it's why Moore with Marner and Tavares for the 2 games looked more effective.

The difference between now and last year, though, was that before the options had opened last year, I found Marner was able to hold the puck, take some pressure, wait, make a move and distribute it. So far this year he's moving the puck early, or getting caught - or really just flubbing it.

I expect he'll right the ship. He's too good not to.