The direction of the team is to decrease goals against... And, first place goes to Ghost with his +/- at -20. He is a big piece of why pucks are in the back of our net. His offensive skill is not balancing out his defensive liabilities. If he starts off slow offensively (like he played last season), we can't do any worse with some one else in at line 3 D.
- leon neon

The fact that you use plus minus as an indicator of defensive ability automatically nullifies your argument

The fact that you use plus minus as an indicator of defensive ability automatically nullifies your argument
- bulet13

I agree that it loses relevance from team to team. But, it's definitely a stat you can use to judge two guys on the same team. How else judge a defenseman for his defensive skill? You can't look at goals, assts, pts. Hit's don't cover it. +/- is the best stat to look at.

I agree that it loses relevance from team to team. But, it's definitely a stat you can use to judge two guys on the same team. How else judge a defenseman for his defensive skill? You can't look at goals, assts, pts. Hit's don't cover it. +/- is the best stat to look at.
- leon neon

If you use it any way to say that this player is a good or bad defensive player, then you're using it wrong. You're also inevitably judging two players who play in different situations with different line mates against different players.

You keep talking about Gostisbehere on the trading block? Who told you that? Where are you getting this info from? Provorov had a bad year last year also

There is no spin that you can put on this.
- MJL

Are you saying that there's no trade rumors about Ghost? They have 8 defensemen... Normally, teams carry 7... Most likely Ghost has been move to line 3 D. Out of the bottom 4 guys, he has the most trade value. I'd like to keep him, but it doesn't look good.

And, no one told me this, their has been numerous articles on moving Ghost. I just googled "gostisbehere trade" and got 71,400 results. Hockeybuzz has had rumors/speculation of the Flyers trading him. Our own Bill wrote an article... "Meltzer's Musings: Gostisbehere at a Crossroads" with "This summer, Gostisbehere was the subject of trade rumors."

The top three of other sources...
https://broadstreetbuzz.c...turn-shayne-gostisbehere/

https://puckprose.com/201...rade-shayne-gostisbehere/

https://www.broadstreetho...-nhl-draft-chuck-fletcher

Are you saying that there's no trade rumors about Ghost? They have 8 defensemen... Normally, teams carry 7... Most likely Ghost has been move to line 3 D. Out of the bottom 4 guys, he has the most trade value. I'd like to keep him, but it doesn't look good.

And, no one told me this, their has been numerous articles on moving Ghost. I just googled "gostisbehere trade" and got 71,400 results. Hockeybuzz has had rumors/speculation of the Flyers trading him. Our own Bill wrote an article... "Meltzer's Musings: Gostisbehere at a Crossroads" with "This summer, Gostisbehere was the subject of trade rumors."

The top three of other sources...
https://broadstreetbuzz.c...turn-shayne-gostisbehere/

https://puckprose.com/201...rade-shayne-gostisbehere/

https://www.broadstreetho...-nhl-draft-chuck-fletcher
- leon neon

Do I now have to explain to you the difference between a player actually being put on the trading block and being shopped by his team and speculative articles written? There is no direct evidence that the Flyers were actually trying to trade Gostisbehere. It's all been unsubstantiated rumors.

If you use it any way to say that this player is a good or bad defensive player, then you're using it wrong. You're also inevitably judging two players who play in different situations with different line mates against different players.
- MJL

I disagree. If someone is the worst +/- on a team... You can't really classify them as a good defensive player. Likewise, if some one excels at +/- and is leading the team - you should speculate that he's good defensively. Of course, we're looking at the sum of an entire season, not just a game or a few games.

Look at the Flyers last season. Giroux and Coots lead the +/-, both good defensive players. Likewise, Ghost and Jake were the worst. Jake is a turnover machine. And, well Ghost isn't good defensively. Looking at just defenseman... Sandheim was 16 pts better than Ghost. Probably a good indicator why he took Ghost spot at line 2D.

Well, how would you use it? What stat would you use to judge a players defensive skill?

Do I now have to explain to you the difference between a player actually being put on the trading block and being shopped by his team and speculative articles written? There is no direct evidence that the Flyers were actually trying to trade Gostisbehere. It's all been unsubstantiated rumors.
- MJL

Do I have to remind you that this is a "hockeybuzz" web site to talk about rumors. All rumors are unsubstantiated, that's why they're rumors. There never or rarely direct evidence that the Flyers are shopping some one.

I disagree. If someone is the worst +/- on a team... You can't really classify them as a good defensive player. Likewise, if some one excels at +/- and is leading the team - you should speculate that he's good defensively. Of course, we're looking at the sum of an entire season, not just a game or a few games.

Look at the Flyers last season. Giroux and Coots lead the +/-, both good defensive players. Likewise, Ghost and Jake were the worst. Jake is a turnover machine. And, well Ghost isn't good defensively. Looking at just defenseman... Sandheim was 16 pts better than Ghost. Probably a good indicator why he took Ghost spot at line 2D.

Well, how would you use it? What stat would you use to judge a players defensive skill?
- leon neon

You don't understand +/- well then. A good solid defensive defenseman who is good defensively, playing on a poor team, taking on all the hard defensive zone shifts against other teams top lines is not going to have a good +/-.

+/- is more than just about good defense. Many poor defensive forwards have good + numbers due to they score a lot of points and play in a lot of offensive situations.

Do I have to remind you that this is a "hockeybuzz" web site to talk about rumors. All rumors are unsubstantiated, that's why they're rumors. There never or rarely direct evidence that the Flyers are shopping some one.
- leon neon

Strawman argument. That does not support your premise or your use of the trade speculation, which is all that it was to support your premise.

The articles you linked even called it speculation and did not include one single legitimate source that the Flyers were looking to trade Gostisbehere.

He's injured before camp has begun.
At what point do you become concerned that he's made of glass?
- PLindbergh31

You don’t. You start developing a female lesbian mascot to go along with gritty to promote equality and lgbt issues.