At least we argue about who’s better instead of everyone tearing my Uncle Leo apart. 🕺🏻😬🕺🏻

This utterly destroys the centre argument.
- aminnes

I gotta admit, Stormey has never looked smarter.

And which player "carried" his team more playing centre or another position without having other great pieces around him?
- Scabeh

Sorry Scabs, dont get this question?

All I'm saying is you build around the centers. They are more valuable and yes they likely wont put up as many points, why?? oh because they are typically the last forward to leave the dzone. they have responsibility outside of pushing the pace north.

I gotta admit, Stormey has never looked smarter.
- Scabeh

Indeed. I also looked back and the only era where centers dominated the awards was the 70's and 80's

Sorry Scabs, dont get this question?

All I'm saying is you build around the centers. They are more valuable and yes they likely wont put up as many points, why?? oh because they are typically the last forward to leave the dzone. they have responsibility outside of pushing the pace north.
- lonnyBohonos

You mentioned OV not being able to carry his team before having other big pieces around him.

I asked which player (that's not a winger) did carry his team to greatness without these other big pieces around him?

Exactly. Lets not forget that Tavares went from 37 goals to 47.
- Stormeysuperego

And more importantly, Tavares went from 84 to 88 points, whereas Marner went from 69 to 94.

They were both good for each other, obviously, but it's pretty clear which of the two benefited more from the partnership.

Remember when Pittsburgh won two cups after they acquired a winger who led the playoffs in scoring?

You mentioned OV not being able to carry his team before having other big pieces around him.

I asked which player (that's not a winger) did carry his team to greatness without these other big pieces around him?
- Scabeh

gotcha. assuming "greatness" means the cup? im a leafs fan, I dont get that reference.

No one is really hauling the whole team to a cup. But, typically the centers are doing the heavy lifting and providing the most value. there will always be exceptions but now I've got you, a habs fan, admitting that Marner is as good as Ovie and Kane.

Remember when Pittsburgh won two cups after they acquired a winger who led the playoffs in scoring?
- aminnes

ya, making the same amount as Sid and Gino?

Are you telling me you think that Phil was more valuable than Sid? Did you not watch those games, Sid took over every game. it was amazing to watch

gotcha. assuming "greatness" means the cup? im a leafs fan, I dont get that reference.

No one is really hauling the whole team to a cup. But, typically the centers are doing the heavy lifting and providing the most value. there will always be exceptions but now I've got you, a habs fan, admitting that Marner is as good as Ovie and Kane.
- lonnyBohonos

Well the guy just scored over 90 points.

I'd say he's an elite winger just like them.

Who'd be dumb enough to say otherwise?

ya, making the same amount as Sid and Gino?

Are you telling me you think that Phil was more valuable than Sid? Did you not watch those games, Sid took over every game. it was amazing to watch
- lonnyBohonos

Not at all. Just repeating the message that it takes guys in all positions.

Remember when Pittsburgh won two cups after they acquired a winger who led the playoffs in scoring?
- aminnes

Pavelski, Couture, and Thornton (all centres) were ahead of Kessel in scoring that year.

And since you jumped on the bandwagon of trophies somehow being important to support the case, it should be noted that a Centre - Crosby - won the Smythe in both years.

If you want to be less simplistic about it and just be straight up instead of using goofy arguments: good players elevate everyone because they draw attention. A good winger is important. The role of the centre is traditionally more important defensively, and should allow a more offensive winger to flourish.

A team that is strong down the middle will normally be better than a team that is stronger on the wings and weak down the middle. This is also because the oppositions wingers can then dominate the weak centres. So it's not like anyone is saying that any position is unimportant.

That ALL said, if you look at the underlying numbers in Marner's case, I believe he is 29th or something in the league in creating scoring opportunities. He drives the play and is in upper third of all first line forwards, but Tavares and Matthews were both in the top 10; Nylander was ahead of Mitch as well. That's a pretty key metric.

Well the guy just scored over 90 points.

I'd say he's an elite winger just like them.

Who'd be dumb enough to say otherwise?
- Scabeh

I don't even know where this all started now but I think it was around saying Marner is the most valuable player and should be paid the most on the team.

I'm fine with him making the same number as Matthews but I dont think he should be the highest paid player on the team.

You had Patches in his prime lighting it up, a norris dman, and an all-time goalie. Would you not have taken a true 1C over patches when you were making runs to the conference final?

Pavelski, Couture, and Thornton (all centres) were ahead of Kessel in scoring that year.

And since you jumped on the bandwagon of trophies somehow being important to support the case, it should be noted that a Centre - Crosby - won the Smythe in both years.

If you want to be less simplistic about it and just be straight up instead of using goofy arguments: good players elevate everyone because they draw attention. A good winger is important. The role of the centre is traditionally more important defensively, and should allow a more offensive winger to flourish.

A team that is strong down the middle will normally be better than a team that is stronger on the wings and weak down the middle. This is also because the oppositions wingers can then dominate the weak centres. So it's not like anyone is saying that any position is unimportant.

That ALL said, if you look at the underlying numbers in Marner's case, I believe he is 29th or something in the league in creating scoring opportunities. He drives the play and is in upper third of all first line forwards, but Tavares and Matthews were both in the top 10; Nylander was ahead of Mitch as well. That's a pretty key metric.
- Monkeypunk

That's why I don't look at stupid 'stats'

That's why I don't look at stupid 'stats'

- aminnes

Then watch the games.

After the first 4-6 weeks of awful, Nylander was driving play very effectively. He was exiting and entering the opposition zones smoothly and with speed. He was backing off the D well - and he either had no one to give the puck to, or he missed the net because he was also shooting like garbage. We don't know, obviously, but I believe that if he had been kept with Matthews, his play would have been effective once he found his stride.

The nice thing about Mitch's style is that goalies are almost certain he's going to pass, but they don't know for sure. So they can cheat on his shot a little, but he's still such an effective passer that it works.

With Nylander, he has a better shot, but if you pair him with someone else who can shoot, he's also a decent passer (not as good as Mitch), but you've elevated his threat because you can't cheat on Nylander's shot as much, and if you do, he can burn you.

Then watch the games.

After the first 4-6 weeks of awful, Nylander was driving play very effectively. He was exiting and entering the opposition zones smoothly and with speed. He was backing off the D well - and he either had no one to give the puck to, or he missed the net because he was also shooting like garbage. We don't know, obviously, but I believe that if he had been kept with Matthews, his play would have been effective once he found his stride.

The nice thing about Mitch's style is that goalies are almost certain he's going to pass, but they don't know for sure. So they can cheat on his shot a little, but he's still such an effective passer that it works.

With Nylander, he has a better shot, but if you pair him with someone else who can shoot, he's also a decent passer (not as good as Mitch), but you've elevated his threat because you can't cheat on Nylander's shot as much, and if you do, he can burn you.
- Monkeypunk

It amazes me that some people don’t see the value of having a AM/WN and a JT/MM line.

- RickJames77

Max's new avatar.

Then watch the games.

After the first 4-6 weeks of awful, Nylander was driving play very effectively. He was exiting and entering the opposition zones smoothly and with speed. He was backing off the D well - and he either had no one to give the puck to, or he missed the net because he was also shooting like garbage. We don't know, obviously, but I believe that if he had been kept with Matthews, his play would have been effective once he found his stride.

The nice thing about Mitch's style is that goalies are almost certain he's going to pass, but they don't know for sure. So they can cheat on his shot a little, but he's still such an effective passer that it works.

With Nylander, he has a better shot, but if you pair him with someone else who can shoot, he's also a decent passer (not as good as Mitch), but you've elevated his threat because you can't cheat on Nylander's shot as much, and if you do, he can burn you.
- Monkeypunk

Nylander creates more scoring chances than Marner. Who defines a 'chance' in this stat sheet, lol. This is actually very, very funny.

It amazes me that some people don’t see the value of having a AM/WN and a JT/MM line.
- Canada Cup

I don't care if Nylander plays with Matthews. It's Babcock that seems to like Kap better.

Well the guy just scored over 90 points.

I'd say he's an elite winger just like them.

Who'd be dumb enough to say otherwise?
- Scabeh

Tessier.

Tessier.
- mykokes

he's just just trying to take his attention away from the state of the jets defense.

ya, making the same amount as Sid and Gino?

Are you telling me you think that Phil was more valuable than Sid? Did you not watch those games, Sid took over every game. it was amazing to watch
- lonnyBohonos

Everybody ( in here anyways ) was saying Kessel got robbed of the MVP award.

I go to the same gym as Jake's wife's grandfather. He gives me the odd update here and there. Apparently Jake has been nursing a little bit of a back issue with his off season training regimen. Hopefully he is ready to go 100%!