You've just discribed Gardiner. Barrie is clearly better.
- RogerRoeper

Yes, I did just describe Gardiner. Because he does the same things. But he's worse at puck retrieval and engagement.

Look, I'm not saying it's a bad deal. It's a great deal, and we will benefit from having Tyson Barrie on the right-side of our high-tempo offensive line-up.

What I am saying is that he absolutely not a better defenseman, and you should prepare yourself for that part of his game.

Gardiner is a good puck-moving D, but not elite like Barrie. And Gardiner is not even healthy. Who knows what he'll be going forward. It's July 17th and he's still not signed.

Are you aware of their cap situation for next year? Because they have more than enough $ to keep Barrie and Dermott. I question if Dubas will even attempt to keep Muzzin. We'll see.

You spend so much time worrying about what our top players make you forget most teams habe worse talent and are also at the cap because they overpay bottom 6 guys. Leafs are not doing that.

Take a look at the Islanders, Vegas, Philly, Montreal cap situations and get back to me.
- RogerRoeper

We're leaf fans, who cares about other teams cap problems?

The entire season though I hated seeing Marleau bring down the top 2 lines. And I can't get past Hyman's usage with 1 leg in the playoffs..
- RogerRoeper

I'm willing to bet Babcock is now on a short leash, I think that with the talent this team has if he doesn't take them to the next level he will be gone.

I love Cap Hell. It's the best.
- Zezel

i'm tanning my balls with the heat from this cap hell.

feels tingly.

Gardiner is a good puck-moving D, but not elite like Barrie. And Gardiner is not even healthy. Who knows what he'll be going forward. It's July 17th and he's still not signed.
- RogerRoeper

Either waiting for the Leafs, or maybe they can't get insurance on his contact yet due to his back.

We're leaf fans, who cares about other teams cap problems?
- Garnie

I am talking about ALL NHL fans. It's ridiculous Leafs are poster boys for "Cap Hell". The point is, they are fine in compared to their competition.

Leafs have hit on all their high 1st rounders. How can they not be close to the cap?

Are you aware of their cap situation for next year? Because they have more than enough $ to keep Barrie and Dermott. I question if Dubas will even attempt to keep Muzzin. We'll see.

You spend so much time worrying about what our top players make you forget most teams habe worse talent and are also at the cap because they overpay bottom 6 guys. Leafs are not doing that.

Take a look at the Islanders, Vegas, Philly, Montreal cap situations and get back to me.
- RogerRoeper

The Leafs have 8 players hitting UFA next year, 3 hitting RFA next year, and then Horton's 5.3M coming off the books.

Shore, Spezza, Holl, Hutch, Harpur, Gautier and Marincin are all around 700k. Let's assume they replace those 7 contracts with 7 other 700k contracts and call it a wash.

Dermott is going to eat up most of that 5.3M coming off from Horton. For argument's sake, let's say it's as low as 4M per on a 6 year deal for Dermott. That leaves you with 1.3M surplus... Let's say the cap goes up by another 1.5M, that's 2.8M available. Ceci is gone, so that saves you 4.5M, bringing us up to 7.3M. How are you signing Muzzin and Barrie for 7.3M? Muzzin is the more likely of the 2 to stay because he will cost less, but Barrie is the right hander, so he's undoubtedly the better option to keep. We may have to trade one of Johnsson or Kapanen (or Hyman) if we want to keep Barrie over Muzzin.

And that's just to keep us in cap hell for another year, carrying 21 players out of a possible 23 again...

It's a real stretch.

Hell, we might even be in a lockout so none of this will matter much..

Honestly, that $2m isn't going to change the "cap hell" you're referring to. The "pennies" add up, sure, but this is not a critical tipping point.

Next year the cap will go up $2-3 million probably, and that will be withholding another $2-3m as they did this year. Ceci's $4.5m is off the books, and they'll have around $15m, I think, to sign Dermott and Barrie or Muzzin.
- Monkeypunk

They have 30 now, at least 10 will be going to Marner, so 20 left and only 2 defensemen.

The Leafs have 8 players hitting UFA next year, 3 hitting RFA next year, and then Horton's 5.3M coming off the books.

Shore, Spezza, Holl, Hutch, Harpur, Gautier and Marincin are all around 700k. Let's assume they replace those 7 contracts with 7 other 700k contracts and call it a wash.

Dermott is going to eat up most of that 5.3M coming off from Horton. For argument's sake, let's say it's as low as 4M per on a 6 year deal for Dermott. That leaves you with 1.3M surplus... Let's say the cap goes up by another 1.5M, that's 2.8M available. Ceci is gone, so that saves you 4.5M, bringing us up to 7.3M. How are you signing Muzzin and Barrie for 7.3M? Muzzin is the more likely of the 2 to stay because he will cost less, but Barrie is the right hander, so he's undoubtedly the better option to keep. We may have to trade one of Johnsson or Kapanen (or Hyman) if we want to keep Barrie over Muzzin.

And that's just to keep us in cap hell for another year, carrying 21 players out of a possible 23 again...

It's a real stretch.
- Snowman X

It is my opinion Dubas won't even attempt to sign Muzzin. He' snot a core piece and he's slow and getting older. Barrie is the guy they can sign.

Develop Dermott more, along with Lilljegren and Sandin

I like it when a girl whispers the dial up tone in my ear.
- RickJames77

easily a candidate for the 'hottest post of the year' award 😜

i'm tanning my balls with the heat from this cap hell.

feels tingly.
- Tumbleweed

high risk plays that don't turn out don't bother me that much as long as they were high reward potential.

the gardiner gaffes in his own zone won't be missed.
- Tumbleweed

I haven't watched a metric crapton of Avs games, but I've seen a few. Most of the stuff I saw with Barrie was similar. Lost battles, sort of . . I don't know - poor positioning or "poor gap control" as they call it, and aside from high risk plays, some panic plays as well. Basically the same stuff we hate about Gardiner.

The problem with this is that we have both a passion bias and a mounting frustration bias, so I think it's hard to compare what we grew to know as Jake Gardiner with anyone else.

He was our problem, and we knew he was a problem. And every time he screwed up, it was just one more reason to stick a stamp on him and mail him out of town. But when he was on, he could control shifts, or more. My feeling is that over the past couple of years, that Gardiner showed up less and less because he was trying to be more responsible. I'm not saying he was successful, but I sincerely think he was trying.

But I think Barrie is a better skater, has a better shot, and I think is better at the stretch pass (although Gardiner could land some beauties).

i'm tanning my balls with the heat from this cap hell.

feels tingly.
- Tumbleweed

This guy is talking basic sensible hockey talk.

The Leafs have 8 players hitting UFA next year, 3 hitting RFA next year, and then Horton's 5.3M coming off the books.

Shore, Spezza, Holl, Hutch, Harpur, Gautier and Marincin are all around 700k. Let's assume they replace those 7 contracts with 7 other 700k contracts and call it a wash.

Dermott is going to eat up most of that 5.3M coming off from Horton. For argument's sake, let's say it's as low as 4M per on a 6 year deal for Dermott. That leaves you with 1.3M surplus... Let's say the cap goes up by another 1.5M, that's 2.8M available. Ceci is gone, so that saves you 4.5M, bringing us up to 7.3M. How are you signing Muzzin and Barrie for 7.3M? Muzzin is the more likely of the 2 to stay because he will cost less, but Barrie is the right hander, so he's undoubtedly the better option to keep. We may have to trade one of Johnsson or Kapanen (or Hyman) if we want to keep Barrie over Muzzin.

And that's just to keep us in cap hell for another year, carrying 21 players out of a possible 23 again...

It's a real stretch.
Hell, we might even be in a lockout so none of this will matter much..
- Snowman X

They have 20 mill next year or about depending on what marner gets and how the cap goes up.
They're fine.

The Leafs have 8 players hitting UFA next year, 3 hitting RFA next year, and then Horton's 5.3M coming off the books.

Shore, Spezza, Holl, Hutch, Harpur, Gautier and Marincin are all around 700k. Let's assume they replace those 7 contracts with 7 other 700k contracts and call it a wash.

Dermott is going to eat up most of that 5.3M coming off from Horton. For argument's sake, let's say it's as low as 4M per on a 6 year deal for Dermott. That leaves you with 1.3M surplus... Let's say the cap goes up by another 1.5M, that's 2.8M available. Ceci is gone, so that saves you 4.5M, bringing us up to 7.3M. How are you signing Muzzin and Barrie for 7.3M? Muzzin is the more likely of the 2 to stay because he will cost less, but Barrie is the right hander, so he's undoubtedly the better option to keep. We may have to trade one of Johnsson or Kapanen (or Hyman) if we want to keep Barrie over Muzzin.

And that's just to keep us in cap hell for another year, carrying 21 players out of a possible 23 again...

It's a real stretch.

Hell, we might even be in a lockout so none of this will matter much..
- Snowman X

Dubas just signed Kap and Johnsson to shorter term deals. What makes you think Dermott gets a longer and more lucrative deal?

He gets 2 or 3 years at 2 million. I'm pretty sure they can sign Barrie for 9.3 or under. Muzzin can walk.

This guy is talking basic sensible hockey talk.
- Zezel

leafs were in a bit of "hell" so to say, but Dubas waived his magical wand and we are now looking beautiful.

They have 20 mill next year or about depending on what marner gets and how the cap goes up.
They're fine.
- bobbyisno1

That's my numbers as well. That's after Marner signs. Leafs will always attract guys for 700K looking to establish their careers. Spezza was a great signing.

Let's make sure that we shape our expectations, because too much optimism can be bordering on crazy.

Barrie is a better offensive defenseman than Gardiner, but he is actually not a better defenseman. He will be as prone to gaffes and high risk plays that don't turn out. The good will outweigh the bad, and the offense will benefit from it, but Barrie is a subpar defenseman. The fact that he's on the right side changes our weaponry significantly, so overall it's a plus.
- Monkeypunk

at least now they have someoe on the right side who can move the puck out.

Teams (Bruins) can key on the left side and force the Leafs to make Zeitsev hand grenade the puck

I haven't watched a metric crapton of Avs games, but I've seen a few. Most of the stuff I saw with Barrie was similar. Lost battles, sort of . . I don't know - poor positioning or "poor gap control" as they call it, and aside from high risk plays, some panic plays as well. Basically the same stuff we hate about Gardiner.

The problem with this is that we have both a passion bias and a mounting frustration bias, so I think it's hard to compare what we grew to know as Jake Gardiner with anyone else.

He was our problem, and we knew he was a problem. And every time he screwed up, it was just one more reason to stick a stamp on him and mail him out of town. But when he was on, he could control shifts, or more. My feeling is that over the past couple of years, that Gardiner showed up less and less because he was trying to be more responsible. I'm not saying he was successful, but I sincerely think he was trying.

But I think Barrie is a better skater, has a better shot, and I think is better at the stretch pass (although Gardiner could land some beauties).
- Monkeypunk

I think your evaluation of both players is pretty fair.

Barrie is much better offensively than Gardiner imo, but if anything is probably worse defensively. And both are known for some bone headed play... Gardiner just saw his on national news quite often. If you ask Avs fans, that's what they'll tell ya.

Overall a good addition to the Leafs as I do like Barrie more than Gardiner, especially with his health problems. Oh and he plays the right side, which fills a glaring need.

Giving Muzzin 6 million per at age 31 for 6 years or so would be stupid. No chance Dubas does that.

Dubas just signed Kap and Johnsson to shorter term deals. What makes you think Dermott gets a longer and more lucrative deal?

He gets 2 or 3 years at 2 million. I'm pretty sure they can sign Barrie for 9.3 or under. Muzzin can walk.
- Aaron_85

lets see how season plays out - maybe they go for Muzzin with some serious offensive talent (Sandin, Liljegren) coming up the pipeline.

All I know is, this is great having all these D!

note: muzzin deal would have to be short and sweet.

They have 30 now, at least 10 will be going to Marner, so 20 left and only 2 defensemen.
- bobbyisno1

Let's say the cap is completely full, and that includes using Horton's $5.3 LTIR, so it's not even a consideration.

At the end of the year, coming off of the books in any relevant manner (because who cares about Shore, Marincin, Holl, Hutchison, or even Spezza) is:

Ceci @ 4.5
Barrie @ 2.75
Muzzin @ 4
Dermott @ .86

The cap will increase by $2-3m.

So that's $12m before the cap increase. Ceci is backfilled by Sandin, most likely, so you have $11m before the cap increase.

If you go with a minimum cap increase of $2m, you have $13m for Barrie or Muzzin (if they want) & Dermott. Dermott shouldn't get much more than $3m yet, but I'm not going to claim to understand the current RFA market. That poop is bananas.

at least now they have someoe on the right side who can move the puck out.

Teams (Bruins) can key on the left side and force the Leafs to make Zeitsev hand grenade the puck
- senstroll

God how I won't miss that!

It'll be so refreshing to be all like, "(frank)ing Ceci. What a tool." It rolls off the tongue better than, "(frank)ing, Zaitsev. What a tool."

I'm also positive I can say Ceci while drunk. It's a win-win.

Let's say the cap is completely full, and that includes using Horton's $5.3 LTIR, so it's not even a consideration.

At the end of the year, coming off of the books in any relevant manner (because who cares about Shore, Marincin, Holl, Hutchison, or even Spezza) is:

Ceci @ 4.5
Barrie @ 2.75
Muzzin @ 4
Dermott @ .86

The cap will increase by $2-3m.

So that's $12m before the cap increase. Ceci is backfilled by Sandin, most likely, so you have $11m before the cap increase.

If you go with a minimum cap increase of $2m, you have $13m for Barrie or Muzzin (if they want) & Dermott. Dermott shouldn't get much more than $3m yet, but I'm not going to claim to understand the current RFA market. That poop is bananas.
- Monkeypunk

The way i'm reading it is that they have 28 million in cap space next year, that's without Marner on the books or the cap increase.