The other ones played more than one end of ice also.
- Grinder47

Let's be honest...if the Pens could get a bag of used practice pucks in exchange for any pick not in the first round and JJ everyone on here (minus a select 1 or 2) would be ecstatic!

I don't see the team being all that active in the high priced talent out there, which stinks because if they had another $3 million or so they could at least entertain some of the guys listed on the trade bait board.
- iworkatinitech

A problem with that... is we have our 1st, and next pick I'm pretty sure is in the 4th round.

Is a team gonna want a 2nd or 3rd next year for JJ? Doubtful. I think you might almost have to give up the 1st to dump him and get back a meh prospect (for roster totals) or a lower round pick.

I’m a big Schultz fan. I agree with many that he’ll rebound just fine especially with a better partner and a better cast of forwards. The only way I’m moving him is if we got a clear cut, long-term top defender and load up like Nashville or SJ. Trouba was never on the radar for obvious reasons. My picks were Karlsson (hah, always a long shot) and Subban. I would still do Phil and Schultz for Subban and Granlund.

Subban takes Phil’s spot on the top unit. I think Granlund pairs on Malkin’s left side well with Rust/Hornqvist and Subban will help drive play like nobodies business

From Nashville’s perspective they get their PP specialist from the left side, they get a more cost effective RHD moving forward, and the obvious cap dump is Smith while they likely send Turris to Buffalo or Dallas

And Yzerman made a lot of trades and almost rarely had any involvement in Free agency. Not sure what you were trying to say there.

Also, I didn't forget about Hossa, the only team that would willingly take that on is Ottawa but they are so cheap they will not.
- burgh4life87

I’m not sure what you don’t get about me bringing up Yzerman. I brought him up because he fits the exact mold of the article, he’s one of the GMs. He just said you can’t build a contender in free agency... so you’re agreeing he fits the mold

Ottawa being cheap is the exact reason why they would take him! So you’re telling me you didn’t forget about Hossa? You also didn’t forget about his $1MM salary? He’s the more ideal cap dump. Clarkson is owed $3.25. For a cheap team like Ottawa who is now further from the floor with the Phaneuf buyout it’s a huge win to take that contract and some assets going their way. I’m not saying it’ll be cheap for AZ to do, but depending on what they do with the cap space it’s a no brainer

A problem with that... is we have our 1st, and next pick I'm pretty sure is in the 4th round.

Is a team gonna want a 2nd or 3rd next year for JJ? Doubtful. I think you might almost have to give up the 1st to dump him and get back a meh prospect (for roster totals) or a lower round pick.
- Guile

I think you may be correct, and honestly at this rate to save the team from JR/MS ineptitude I say sacrifice the 1st to rid the team of that albatross!

I have always wondered why teams continue to fill the 3rd/4th lines with middling vets rather than inserting 1-2 young "kids" in there to learn the ropes as well as allow the team to see what they have...if the Pens could move JJ (for the 1st this year) and then move ZAR or someone else to free up more salary and let A Johnson/Militec/Bellerive earn a spot on the 3rd/4th line(s) they could make a real push to grab Ehlers or someone else comparable.

Braun to SJ for a 2nd and a 3rd. Coburn staying in Tampa. Philly is set on the right and has 5 on the left side. Sure looks like Ghost is going to be moved

A problem with that... is we have our 1st, and next pick I'm pretty sure is in the 4th round.

Is a team gonna want a 2nd or 3rd next year for JJ? Doubtful. I think you might almost have to give up the 1st to dump him and get back a meh prospect (for roster totals) or a lower round pick.
- Guile

That first ain’t gonna amount to poop anyways. Get rid of it with JJ.

Braun to SJ for a 2nd and a 3rd. Coburn staying in Tampa. Philly is set on the right and has 5 on the left side. Sure looks like Ghost is going to be moved
- WSCTeton17

https://twitter.com/ineff.../1141010823113891840?s=21
Braun figures

https://twitter.com/ineffectivemath/status/1141010823113891840?s=21
Braun figures
- WSCTeton17

For Boyd
https://twitter.com/thepo.../1141021351463051269?s=21

Ask yourself these questions...

Do the Bruins or Blues look better, on paper, than the Pens did last year? Try and imagine answering that question right around the turn of the year - put yourself back to that time (forget these other teams played for the cup).

I didn't think either of those teams looked better on paper.

Did the Penguins have any stretch longer than say 2 or 3 games, where they looked like a cup contender?

I say absolutely not. For 10 games or so Murray was lights out and in that stretch they looked better but just about everybody knew it wasn't going to last. In their first season of their most recent back to back cups the Pens clearly looked like a team that could win the cup. Not so much in the second run but they definitely knew what it took to win and could reach that compete level when needed.

Did the Penguins ever look like they played together...believed in the system...played for each other?

I know some will laugh at this but the two teams that made the finals...the other teams that won a series...or even a friggin game in the playoffs (remember, we were SWEPT)...played with some semblance of that for good periods of time. The Penguins never looked that way to me.

I don't buy the idea that the failure is all about a lack of leadership...but it certainly played a part. Getting swept in round 1...something was lacking in motivation...desire...belief...and um...leadership?

I also can't blame it all on JR. When I look at other teams that won a series and the team that won the cup, I have a hard time seeing the drastic difference in personnel between those rosters and the Pens. Even with mistakes that were made with the roster, the Pens roster was not substantially lacking in comparison to those teams.

Remember too, that almost every year - without exception - you can look at the teams that won or made it to the finals and point to a list of players that had 'career' seasons or playoff performances. The Pens really didn't have anybody in the group for the regular season and certainly not the playoffs.

The Penguins never jelled. The players and the system...the belief they could win with this group. That is a combination of both personnel and the team mentality that develops from that grouping.

I’m not sure what you don’t get about me bringing up Yzerman. I brought him up because he fits the exact mold of the article, he’s one of the GMs. He just said you can’t build a contender in free agency... so you’re agreeing he fits the mold

Ottawa being cheap is the exact reason why they would take him! So you’re telling me you didn’t forget about Hossa? You also didn’t forget about his $1MM salary? He’s the more ideal cap dump. Clarkson is owed $3.25. For a cheap team like Ottawa who is now further from the floor with the Phaneuf buyout it’s a huge win to take that contract and some assets going their way. I’m not saying it’ll be cheap for AZ to do, but depending on what they do with the cap space it’s a no brainer
- WSCTeton17

They already have 2 players on the LTIR that are making money without contributing they will not add another. They have like 7 or 8 roster spots to fill. They can easily sign enough players to reach compliance without having to bring in dead money.

Ask yourself these questions...

Do the Bruins or Blues look better, on paper, than the Pens did last year? Try and imagine answering that question right around the turn of the year - put yourself back to that time (forget these other teams played for the cup).

I didn't think either of those teams looked better on paper.

Did the Penguins have any stretch longer than say 2 or 3 games, where they looked like a cup contender?

I say absolutely not. For 10 games or so Murray was lights out and in that stretch they looked better but just about everybody knew it wasn't going to last. In their first season of their most recent back to back cups the Pens clearly looked like a team that could win the cup. Not so much in the second run but they definitely knew what it took to win and could reach that compete level when needed.

Did the Penguins ever look like they played together...believed in the system...played for each other?

I know some will laugh at this but the two teams that made the finals...the other teams that won a series...or even a friggin game in the playoffs (remember, we were SWEPT)...played with some semblance of that for good periods of time. The Penguins never looked that way to me.

I don't buy the idea that the failure is all about a lack of leadership...but it certainly played a part. Getting swept in round 1...something was lacking in motivation...desire...belief...and um...leadership?

I also can't blame it all on JR. When I look at other teams that won a series and the team that won the cup, I have a hard time seeing the drastic difference in personnel between those rosters and the Pens. Even with mistakes that were made with the roster, the Pens roster was not substantially lacking in comparison to those teams.

Remember too, that almost every year - without exception - you can look at the teams that won or made it to the finals and point to a list of players that had 'career' seasons or playoff performances. The Pens really didn't have anybody in the group for the regular season and certainly not the playoffs.

The Penguins never jelled. The players and the system...the belief they could win with this group. That is a combination of both personnel and the team mentality that develops from that grouping.
- icedog97

TL;DR - The Stanley Cup is hard to win.

at 5v5 for the season Phil Kessel and Geno w/o JJ had 20 goals for and 18 against.
With Johnson the trio had 10 goals for and 9 against
JJ on the ice without phil or geno 25 goals for and 33 against
- burgh4life87

Right, so no difference with or without JJ.

I wasn't trying to defend JJ, he stinks, but saying the problems with Malkin and Kessel playing together go beyond him.

Ask yourself these questions...

Do the Bruins or Blues look better, on paper, than the Pens did last year? Try and imagine answering that question right around the turn of the year - put yourself back to that time (forget these other teams played for the cup)....
- icedog97

I agree with much of your post. Think of how many odd-man breaks the Pens allowed every night. How many goals did they allow with the man advantage? I think they lead the league in that category. Sure the roster had flaws, but those bad issues were the result of poor effort and focus. No team will win a cup playing that way

Ask yourself these questions...

Do the Bruins or Blues look better, on paper, than the Pens did last year? Try and imagine answering that question right around the turn of the year - put yourself back to that time (forget these other teams played for the cup).

I didn't think either of those teams looked better on paper.

Did the Penguins have any stretch longer than say 2 or 3 games, where they looked like a cup contender?

I say absolutely not. For 10 games or so Murray was lights out and in that stretch they looked better but just about everybody knew it wasn't going to last. In their first season of their most recent back to back cups the Pens clearly looked like a team that could win the cup. Not so much in the second run but they definitely knew what it took to win and could reach that compete level when needed.

Did the Penguins ever look like they played together...believed in the system...played for each other?

I know some will laugh at this but the two teams that made the finals...the other teams that won a series...or even a friggin game in the playoffs (remember, we were SWEPT)...played with some semblance of that for good periods of time. The Penguins never looked that way to me.

I don't buy the idea that the failure is all about a lack of leadership...but it certainly played a part. Getting swept in round 1...something was lacking in motivation...desire...belief...and um...leadership?

I also can't blame it all on JR. When I look at other teams that won a series and the team that won the cup, I have a hard time seeing the drastic difference in personnel between those rosters and the Pens. Even with mistakes that were made with the roster, the Pens roster was not substantially lacking in comparison to those teams.

Remember too, that almost every year - without exception - you can look at the teams that won or made it to the finals and point to a list of players that had 'career' seasons or playoff performances. The Pens really didn't have anybody in the group for the regular season and certainly not the playoffs.

The Penguins never jelled. The players and the system...the belief they could win with this group. That is a combination of both personnel and the team mentality that develops from that grouping.
- icedog97

I think Lehner having a .968 save percentage had a lot to do with it.

They already have 2 players on the LTIR that are making money without contributing they will not add another. They have like 7 or 8 roster spots to fill. They can easily sign enough players to reach compliance without having to bring in dead money.
- burgh4life87

They’re $13MM below the lower limit and that’s prior to them moving a goalie. They’ve already commit to Ceci and White. LaJoie could or Brannstrom could certainly make the team meaning they’re set on D.

They’re not getting a Hayes or a Duchene. So who’s going to come sign on this rebuilding team? Them adding someone in their mid to late twenties via trade makes no sense

Right, so no difference with or without JJ.

I wasn't trying to defend JJ, he stinks, but saying the problems with Malkin and Kessel playing together go beyond him.
- Tojo.

Before anyone brings it up, yes, I believe you can do it with the other 3 guys, it will just be harder. Fixing the defense would help too. I'd play Phil on the 3rd line.

But they should really try to get Malkin a wing who can do the hard work stuff and can consistently score over 20 goals maybe 30. Only guy like that on the roster is Guentzel.

Ottawa: if you’re in a full rebuild and it’ll cost you $1MM each of the next two seasons to possibly add a 2nd and a 3rd or a 4th, you do it all day. Gabby at $3.1MM AAV and MacArthur at $4.75MM to a cash strapped team are not in the same realm whatsoever

Before anyone brings it up, yes, I believe you can do it with the other 3 guys, it will just be harder. Fixing the defense would help too. I'd play Phil on the 3rd line.

But they should really try to get Malkin a wing who can do the hard work stuff and can consistently score over 20 goals maybe 30. Only guy like that on the roster is Guentzel.
- Tojo.

I wouldn’t mind starting the season with what we have up front and seeing what McCann, Rust, and Kahun can do. We can always get a LW during the season. If we could get Zucker for Rust+ obviously we should continue to explore it

Yeah I don’t put stock into plus/minus. It’s a dog poop stat.

He was actually a +8 at 5v5 over the last 41 games. I prefer differential stats at specific situations as opposed to arbitrary ones created by the NHL.
- j.boyd919

Where do you find this 5v5 stat? NHL Phil doesn't PK and only plays PP and EV. and +/- only counts at even strength (or - on PP/ + on PK). so where do we get this 23 pt difference? The PP didnt give up 23 goals in the second half alone?

Where do you find this 5v5 stat? NHL Phil doesn't PK and only plays PP and EV. and +/- only counts at even strength (or - on PP/ + on PK). so where do we get this 23 pt difference? The PP didnt give up 23 goals in the second half alone?
- joecool2931

Someone corrected me. The filters on my site didn’t take when I put them in. +/- also includes empty net goals, which I don’t like to include either. He was an even 0 at 5v5 over the last 41 games. Naturalstattrick.com is where I go for stats

Someone corrected me. The filters on my site didn’t take when I put them in. +/- also includes empty net goals, which I don’t like to include either. He was an even 0 at 5v5 over the last 41 games. Naturalstattrick.com is where I go for stats
- j.boyd919

Okay, i can see that kind of difference in the numbers. But still a 0 5v5 +/- is not the kind of production you want from him. Considering his quality of competition is lower than average and while usually getting favorable zone starts not to mention high quality of teammate