You probably know that team better than anyone else on this thread. Are you saying Holland has done a poor job at all aspects of his job? Seems to me like you guys have a good AHL team and you’ve done relatively well drafting haven’t you? Especially compared to say Edmonton who beyond 1st rounders is pretty barren.

Sometimes ownership steps in and says throw more money at xxxxxx, do you think the Wings do this at all or are these overpaid depth guys 100% a result of Holland overpaying? Just asking what you think if you don’t know for sure
- WSCTeton17

Yeah I don't think it's fair to call Holland a terrible GM. He values scouting a lot more than the previous Oilers' GMs that's for sure.

Buddy. Just stop. Holland is a bad GM.
- Feds91Stammer

Actually he is technically right.

Mandate was to keep the playoff streak going at all costs. Did he make some bad moves in trying to do that? Yeah. Did he hand out some bad contracts? Yes, but he did so to keep some of their fan favorites.

I actually think he did a hell of a job keeping it going. LA and Chicago have poop the bed shortly after winning cups... at least the Wings stayed relevant and in the playoffs for years after their last cup.

Is he the best GM? No. Is he better than just about every other option they had? I think so.

Sorry but the Pens have a massively better roster than the Islanders. It's sad to say but they lost because the Isles worked harder. Simple as that.
- MacPatty

I'm with you here. And count the fact the Pens played terrible against the weaker teams all year. No fight or desire to be at their best. Off course the team had a lot of problems too.

Indeed. Mostly, anyway.


"Also, a major factor that I bring up but no one else seems to acknowledge except maybe MadMike, is just how out of sync they were due to all the injuries and returning from major injuries in proximity to the playoffs. Geno, Tanger, Dumo, Rust, Maatta, McCann and probably even others I'm not thinking of were either returning to game action a game or 2 before playoffs started, most likely not 100% physically ready but definitely not game action sharp, especially playoffs pace sharp, or were seriously banged up and still in the lineup.

The coaching decisions were brutal, and a major factor, but they dont have anything to do with how the Pens couldn't make tape to tape passes or bury pucks into wide open cages. "

Quotes aren't working Mattstrat…

While I'll agree with players coming back right before the playoffs, right before that was the stretch in March where the Pens played solid, consistent hockey WITHOUT those injured guys... namely 71 and 58. Heck, they were even fun to watch during that stretch.

Just to add context, there are term limits on the calculation. So if you offer sheet someone for 7 years I believe they average the same total salary over 5 years instead of 7. I believe there are two such nuances. Capfriendly tweeted it
- WSCTeton17

Precisely. From Gord Miller:

For the purposes of calculating the average annual value (AAV) of an RFA offer sheet, take the total value of the contract and divide it by the number of years on the contract or 5, whichever is lower.
Example: a 6 year offer sheet for $60m has an AAV of $12m ($60m divided by 5)

Indeed. Mostly, anyway.


"Also, a major factor that I bring up but no one else seems to acknowledge except maybe MadMike, is just how out of sync they were due to all the injuries and returning from major injuries in proximity to the playoffs. Geno, Tanger, Dumo, Rust, Maatta, McCann and probably even others I'm not thinking of were either returning to game action a game or 2 before playoffs started, most likely not 100% physically ready but definitely not game action sharp, especially playoffs pace sharp, or were seriously banged up and still in the lineup.

The coaching decisions were brutal, and a major factor, but they dont have anything to do with how the Pens couldn't make tape to tape passes or bury pucks into wide open cages. "

Quotes aren't working Mattstrat…

While I'll agree with players coming back right before the playoffs, right before that was the stretch in March where the Pens played solid, consistent hockey WITHOUT those injured guys... namely 71 and 58.
- Cousinskrid

I wouldn't be surprised if #58 was traded and if I had to choose one to stay it'd be #71.

A team should consider themselves damn lucky to acquire Marner for four firsts if TOR didn’t match the sheet.

A team should consider themselves damn lucky to acquire Marner for four firsts if TOR didn’t match the sheet.
- Victoro311

I don't think the same way

The Islanders suck, dude.

They're roster is atrocious. They just had a really good coach that squeezed everything systemically out of them that he could and they counterpunched their way to a lot of victories.

Once they ran into an opponent that could retrieve pucks from their own end quickly and turn it back up the ice they were done.
- BINGO!

If the Islanders suck that is pretty impressive to finish second in the Metro, fourth in the East, and fifth in the entire NHL. Sorry, but it isn't possible to do this good in the regular season with an atrocious roster, unless Trotz is a miracle worker (which he isn't). The Islanders are a good team. They just were unable to deal with an opponent who did not have any significant weaknesses to exploit. Also, having a long rest can hurt a team (just ask the 2007 Ottawa Senators), causing them to be a bit rusty, the way how teams often look after all-star and Olympic breaks.

You probably know that team better than anyone else on this thread. Are you saying Holland has done a poor job at all aspects of his job? Seems to me like you guys have a good AHL team and you’ve done relatively well drafting haven’t you? Especially compared to say Edmonton who beyond 1st rounders is pretty barren.

Sometimes ownership steps in and says throw more money at xxxxxx, do you think the Wings do this at all or are these overpaid depth guys 100% a result of Holland overpaying? Just asking what you think if you don’t know for sure
- WSCTeton17

Good AHL team? The one filled with AHL lifers?

Holland is terrible at asset management. Holland is terrible at cap management. Holland is terrible at roster construction. Holland is average at drafting.

Holland is 100% to blame for the bad deals. He is overly loyal to what he is familiar with.

Yeah I don't think it's fair to call Holland a terrible GM. He values scouting a lot more than the previous Oilers' GMs that's for sure.
- Barnaby36

Based on what exactly?

Actually he is technically right.

Mandate was to keep the playoff streak going at all costs. Did he make some bad moves in trying to do that? Yeah. Did he hand out some bad contracts? Yes, but he did so to keep some of their fan favorites.

I actually think he did a hell of a job keeping it going. LA and Chicago have poop the bed shortly after winning cups... at least the Wings stayed relevant and in the playoffs for years after their last cup.

Is he the best GM? No. Is he better than just about every other option they had? I think so.
- MacPatty

Holland was part of the group that decided to keep the streak alive. The main issue was the lack of commitment to a direction. Rather than go big or go home he chose to stand pat and waste assets for players that don't move the needle. Maybe if he goes for a big splash they actually compete for another cup instead of being mediocre for 5 years.

I don't think the same way
- Barnaby36

you are overvaluing 4 20-32 range picks then.

I don't think the same way
- Barnaby36

Marner is a franchise level star. If you’re a contender your firsts are going to be low-ish, and the likelihood that you’ll hit on a franchise level star is super low. Furthermore, they’ll take about three years since the draft to develop. So if you’re a contender, the instant injection of a franchise level star is well worth four lotto tickets that in best case scenario will only have a major impact when your core is 3-4 years older than they are right now.

If Malkin gets moved they better make whatever team gets him take JJ.

Marner is a franchise level star. If you’re a contender your firsts are going to be low-ish, and the likelihood that you’ll hit on a franchise level star is super low. Furthermore, they’ll take about three years since the draft to develop. So if you’re a contender, the instant injection of a franchise level star is well worth four lotto tickets that in best case scenario will only have a major impact when your core is 3-4 years older than they are right now.
- Victoro311

Just look at what PIT has gotten out of their last 4 first round picks (to an extent)

Brassard, Reaves, Kessel, and Perron

Marner in his prime locked up long term is way better than all of those imo

If Malkin gets moved they better make whatever team gets him take JJ.
- Rinosaur

Congrats on acquiring Rasmussen, Nielsen, Helm, and Dekeyser.

Marner is a franchise level star. If you’re a contender your firsts are going to be low-ish, and the likelihood that you’ll hit on a franchise level star is super low. Furthermore, they’ll take about three years since the draft to develop. So if you’re a contender, the instant injection of a franchise level star is well worth four lotto tickets that in best case scenario will only have a major impact when your core is 3-4 years older than they are right now.
- Victoro311

No doubt Marner is amazing and I'd love to get him. But it's going to take 11.5 to 12M for Toronto not to match plus you give up the picks.

Great as he is, I'd rather overpay Duchene at 10.5 and keep the picks. In the least they are valuable trade capital and if you are taking on a monster salary like that you will need something to incentivize a JJ salary dump.

Just look at what PIT has gotten out of their last 4 first round picks (to an extent)

Brassard, Reaves, Kessel, and Perron

Marner in his prime locked up long term is way better than all of those imo
- Feds91Stammer

To be fair we traded down a round for Reaves, but yeah that’s basically the point. For contenders, first rounders are usually seen as trade bate, whether they’re traded outright at the deadline or the prospected drafted is traded before joining the big club like Kapanen. Contenders so seldom see their first rounders come into fruition, and when they do they’re almost never Marner-level contributors. You trade your firsts in the hopes of getting a player back that’s a fraction as good as Marner. May as well consolidate.

But none of this matters because TOR will match anything thrown Marner’s way, which really tells you all you need to know about Marner’s value vs the value of four late firsts.

Marner is a franchise level star. If you’re a contender your firsts are going to be low-ish, and the likelihood that you’ll hit on a franchise level star is super low. Furthermore, they’ll take about three years since the draft to develop. So if you’re a contender, the instant injection of a franchise level star is well worth four lotto tickets that in best case scenario will only have a major impact when your core is 3-4 years older than they are right now.
- Victoro311

Yup. Think about how many contenders have given up firsts for slightly above average rentals. It’s totally worth it.

No doubt Marner is amazing and I'd love to get him. But it's going to take 11.5 to 12M for Toronto not to match plus you give up the picks.

Great as he is, I'd rather overpay Duchene at 10.5 and keep the picks. In the least they are valuable trade capital and if you are taking on a monster salary like that you will need something to incentivize a JJ salary dump.
- MacPatty

Well sure I’d rather just sign Artemi Panarin outright if we had cap space, but I’m not talking about specifically for the Pens or that in context offer sheeting Marner is the best course of action for any given team. I’m saying a 4 1sts compensation is great value for Marner in a vacuum that teams should be happy to walk away with.

None of this actually matters for the Pens since we’re capped out.

Good AHL team? The one filled with AHL lifers?

Holland is terrible at asset management. Holland is terrible at cap management. Holland is terrible at roster construction. Holland is average at drafting.

Holland is 100% to blame for the bad deals. He is overly loyal to what he is familiar with.
- Feds91Stammer

I don’t know the franchise all that well. Seems to me like he won or at least didn’t do terribly on these somewhat recent trades: Nyquist, Jensen, TATARRRR, Sheahan, Vanek, Smith, Jurco, the Datsyuk trade.

Picks outside the first round in the last decade include: Hronek, Bertuzzi, Frk, AA, Jarnkrok, Mrazek, Tatar, Jensen. Stellar? No. But there are some decent names. Edmonton’s drafting outside of the first round has been pretty ugly

Obviously many of his signings have been bad. But to me what has really hurt this franchise are the guys leaving without getting any return: Datsyuk, Franzen, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Osgood, Cleary, Samuelsson (who left for more money), Draper, Holmstrom, Rafalski. They did right by allowing most of these guys to retire as red wings but as we all know having them gone with no assets coming back definitely hurts

I don’t know the franchise all that well. Seems to me like he won or at least didn’t do terribly on these somewhat recent trades: Nyquist, Jensen, TATARRRR, Sheahan, Vanek, Smith, Jurco, the Datsyuk trade.

Picks outside the first round in the last decade include: Hronek, Bertuzzi, Frk, AA, Jarnkrok, Mrazek, Tatar, Jensen. Stellar? No. But there are some decent names. Edmonton’s drafting outside of the first round has been pretty ugly

Obviously many of his signings have been bad. But to me what has really hurt this franchise are the guys leaving without getting any return: Datsyuk, Franzen, Holmstrom, Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Osgood, Cleary, Samuelsson (who left for more money), Draper, Holmstrom, Rafalski. They did right by allowing most of these guys to retire as red wings but as we all know having them gone with no assets coming back definitely hurts
- WSCTeton17

Wow he finally got something in return for his assets. Also didn't win the Datsyuk trade.

I said his drafting is average.

Curious how Carolina dumping a rested Isles team in 4 vs Carolina beating the Caps in OT in Game 7 would lead one to conclude that the Caps were the best potential matchup for the Pens, but I suppose if you get swept you might be looking for a "matchup" rationalization. We'll see how this plays out, but it might be the 4th consecutive season in which the winner of the Caps vs someone (the Pens the previous 3) ultimately leads to the winner of the Cup.
- LoudounCapsFan

Matchups are funny things, but I didn't think I would have to tell a Capitals fan that . For example, coming out of the 2008-9 regular season, the Pens were the fifth seed in the East with 99 points. I guarantee with total and absolute certainty that if the Pens had to play against either Boston or NJ in the playoffs that year they would have lost, especially in an early round. They were not physical enough to beat Boston and not disciplined enough to beat NJ (and still aren't - even the current pathetic NJ team is a monumental challenge for the Pens, if not for anyone else). Fortunately Carolina, the sixth seed that year, took care of both (miraculously against NJ). They were wiped out by the time they made it to the conference finals and the Pens swept them. Of the top three seeds that year the one whom the Pens matched up against best was your Capitals, whom they beat in six in the second round. They are the only one of the top three Eastern seeds the Pens could have beaten that year.

Another example is the following season, 2009-10. Your Capitals finished first in the league with 121 points (one of the best regular season records ever). Most of the potential matchups favored them. Yet, the one they got was a Montreal Canadiens team, with Jaroslav Halak having a career year and a solid defensive system in front of him. He shut down the Russians in the Olympics that year, shutdown the mighty Capitals in the first round, and then shut down the defending champs, the Pens, in the second round. Unfortunately he came down to Earth in the conf. finals, allowing one of the luckiest and least talented teams ever to make it to the Stanley Cup finals (the Flyers that year). This put Pens fans in the unenviable position of having to cheer for Hossa to win his first Cup.

Winning the President's Trophy is all about who is the best overall team, on average, over the course of a regular season. Winning the playoffs is about winning four specific matchups. Teams need to be able to switch from being "good, in general" to being "good, against opponent x". Matchups, circumstances, and luck are thus major factors in the playoffs. Just because team x matches up good against team y and team y matches up good against team z it does not mean that team x matches up especially good against team z. In fact it could just be the opposite. This is proven just about every year (and then forgotten about before the start of the next year's playoffs) but is especially being proven this year.

Also note that I did not say necessarily that the Pens would beat the Capitals - just that they would have done better. They certainly couldn't have done any worse .

Wow he finally got something in return for his assets. Also didn't win the Datsyuk trade.

I said his drafting is average.
- Feds91Stammer

https://www.nhl.com/news/...ck-to-coyotes/c-281042828
Chol has a pretty decent first year in the league. Chychrun struggled big time. They freed up a ton of cap space and also added a 2nd rounder. You’re a smart guy, no denying that. What am I missing? How did they come out worse than AZ?