Tavares and Marner were tasked with stopping the best line in hockey.
- Aetherial

For sure, but I think (as of next season) when we're paying them 20 million ish, we also want them to push back and score goals. Unfortunately, it's not enough asking them to solely attempt to stop that line scoring.

It clearly has.

Lou built this team more than Dubas, you are aware, right?
- RogerRoeper

please elaborate

Eh, Trotz just won the cup and Washington had him technically under contract. He left for big $.
- RogerRoeper

I meant when he went from the Preds to the Caps

Last nights results were predictable.
Leafs just dont seem to have that fight or heart yet. Not like what san Jose showed, wow. Good for them. Fack you vegas.

Better coaching could have changed this series and could have provided a little of that fight/will as well (and no not fist "fighting", fools).

All asst coaches need to fired immediately. They cannot come back.

A real non emotional assessment needs to be done on the core of this team. Can the leafs win with it? Changes may need to made.

Pretty much a wasted year.
- Fakepartofme

I think you are right on target in your comments. I thought the Leafs had the superior skill over Boston by a long way. But Boston had a will to win that the Leafs could not match. A Gary Roberts type player would not have allowed this team to fade in the third period. Kadri seems to be the only guy who has enough fire in his belly to push other guys to higher levels.

It is too early for in depth analysis. But, how do you explain Long Island and Columbus blowing away really tough teams? The Leafs have more skill than either of those teams. What is the missing intangible?

It clearly has.

Lou built this team more than Dubas, you are aware, right?
- RogerRoeper

In truth, when i see the current Stanley Cup Champs, the Caps to go along with the Blues, Stars, Sharks, Avs, Islanders, Bruins and Jackets, i wonder how much the game has really changed.

I think you are right on target in your comments. I thought the Leafs had the superior skill over Boston by a long way. But Boston had a will to win that the Leafs could not match. A Gary Roberts type player would not have allowed this team to fade in the third period. Kadri seems to be the only guy who has enough fire in his belly to push other guys to higher levels.

It is too early for in depth analysis. But, how do you explain Long Island and Columbus blowing away really tough teams? The Leafs have more skill than either of those teams. What is the missing intangible?
- spatso

GMs actually listening to their coaches and helping them with the team setup/build for playoffs.

It clearly has.

Lou built this team more than Dubas, you are aware, right?
- RogerRoeper

this is interesting to me, I read quote after quote the other day giving all credit to Lou and Hunter for building this team... now that the Leafs lost


let me Guess...its Dubas that built the team

In truth, when i see the current Stanley Cup Champs, the Caps to go along with the Blues, Stars, Sharks, Avs, Islanders, Bruins and Jackets, i wonder how much the game has really changed.
- walshyleafsfan

game hasn't changed.
dubas and co sharing the same spreadsheets with some of their friends has some people believing that league has changed, but that really isn't the case.

just have to look at how dallas is playing - benn, seguin radulov line, but as well players like hintz, faksa, Richardinson and you'll see how SC playoff games are played and won.

Dallas is my pick to win the Cup this year after having seen the first playoff round.

Sweet, nourishing blame!

I think you are right on target in your comments. I thought the Leafs had the superior skill over Boston by a long way. But Boston had a will to win that the Leafs could not match. A Gary Roberts type player would not have allowed this team to fade in the third period. Kadri seems to be the only guy who has enough fire in his belly to push other guys to higher levels.

It is too early for in depth analysis. But, how do you explain Long Island and Columbus blowing away really tough teams? The Leafs have more skill than either of those teams. What is the missing intangible?
- spatso

Maybe the really tough teams dont have the intangibles either? why did they lose in 4, what are they missing?

Congrats to RJ. You're a good dude.

Gardiner playing his last game as a Leaf hopefully has a less Larry Murphyish ending and more of a McCabe ending.

this is interesting to me, I read quote after quote the other day giving all credit to Lou and Hunter for building this team... now that the Leafs lost


let me Guess...its Dubas that built the team
- senstroll

the point is more that Dubas didn't do enough.

going on about Dallas; the recognized some gaps before the season.
added one of the best backup goalies in league, and addressed offensive and defensive issues through UFA.

then before deadline added Foligno, Zuccharello, Lovejoy, Oleksiak.

game hasn't changed.
dubas and co sharing the same spreadsheets with some of their friends has some people believing that league has changed, but that really isn't the case.

just have to look at how dallas is playing - benn, seguin radulov line, but as well players like hintz, faksa, Richardinson and you'll see how SC playoff games are played and won.

Dallas is my pick to win the Cup this year after having seen the first playoff round.
- MaximusAurelius

I also might pick Dallas since they have a Vezina goalie playing the best of his career.
and some guy named hintz

For sure, but I think (as of next season) when we're paying them 20 million ish, we also want them to push back and score goals. Unfortunately, it's not enough asking them to solely attempt to stop that line scoring.
- walshyleafsfan

Brian Burke said it best. Matthews had a couple "good" games. Other than that, he didn't do much. Yeah, he hit a couple empty nets after great passes. Outside of that, there was one awesome shot (game 6).

Other people get blamed for his -3 yesterday, but where was HIS offense. I don't want to hear about his linemates. He is about to be the second highest paid player in the game.

You think he is anywhere even close to that discussion?

The truth is, this entire team failed. I really suspect something is fundamentally wrong in this organization again.

I think you are right on target in your comments. I thought the Leafs had the superior skill over Boston by a long way. But Boston had a will to win that the Leafs could not match. A Gary Roberts type player would not have allowed this team to fade in the third period. Kadri seems to be the only guy who has enough fire in his belly to push other guys to higher levels.

It is too early for in depth analysis. But, how do you explain Long Island and Columbus blowing away really tough teams? The Leafs have more skill than either of those teams. What is the missing intangible?
- spatso

As goofy as it is, I think it's belief / confidence. Parity in the NHL is a pretty true thing. Now rebuilding teams and weak teams can believe whatever they want - it's not going to fix those problems. But when a moderately good team starts really believing they can be a great team, then they gain confidence and start executing on the things that make them successful. I think the ability to sustain that level of play is what sets those teams apart from one another.

I don't think the Leafs have that belief and confidence. I know that Boston does.

And I think Torts and Trotz (which is basically the same name, WTF?) have their teams believing and executing as a result.

I also think it helped that both Pittsburgh and Tampa thought those series were going to be a cakewalk.

the point is more that Dubas didn't do enough.

going on about Dallas; the recognized some gaps before the season.
added one of the best backup goalies in league, and addressed offensive and defensive issues through UFA.

then before deadline added Foligno, Zuccharello, Lovejoy, Oleksiak.
- MaximusAurelius

a GM can only do so much in less than a year. He made a huge move adding Muzzin.
And he added Tavares (I expect you to give zero credit for this), but if you beleive Tavares himself , well they sold him on Toronto

Brian Burke said it best. Matthews had a couple "good" games. Other than that, he didn't do much. Yeah, he hit a couple empty nets after great passes. Outside of that, there was one awesome shot (game 6).

Other people get blamed for his -3 yesterday, but where was HIS offense. I don't want to hear about his linemates. He is about to be the second highest paid player in the game.

You think he is anywhere even close to that discussion?

The truth is, this entire team failed. I really suspect something is fundamentally wrong in this organization again.
- Aetherial

wasnt he on for 2 of the empty net goals? I know 1 for sure
what a dumb stat... just take out ENG at a very min.

this is interesting to me, I read quote after quote the other day giving all credit to Lou and Hunter for building this team... now that the Leafs lost


let me Guess...its Dubas that built the team
- senstroll

The worst part of all of this is that NOTHING material is going to change except we will lose a couple decent players in order to keep Marner.

wasnt he on for 2 of the empty net goals? I know 1 for sure
what a dumb stat... just take out ENG at a very min.
- senstroll

Tell me more about 5 on 5 goal differential.

... because apparently that is somehow not a dumb stat.

In a single game sample, yeah it is a dumb stat, so are all analytics on a sample that small.

So, let's ignore the number.

Matthews was matched against the 3rd and 4th lines for much of his time. What did he generate last night?

wasnt he on for 2 of the empty net goals? I know 1 for sure
what a dumb stat... just take out ENG at a very min.
- senstroll

yes. That absolutely has to be removed from the stat.

I find it shocking that it is in there frankly? I don't know how much difference is makes over the course of a season, or a career, but it definitely doesn't make sense.

Brian Burke said it best. Matthews had a couple "good" games. Other than that, he didn't do much. Yeah, he hit a couple empty nets after great passes. Outside of that, there was one awesome shot (game 6).

Other people get blamed for his -3 yesterday, but where was HIS offense. I don't want to hear about his linemates. He is about to be the second highest paid player in the game.

You think he is anywhere even close to that discussion?

The truth is, this entire team failed. I really suspect something is fundamentally wrong in this organization again.
- Aetherial

I don't necessarily think there's something fundamentally wrong going forward, and things can be fixed, but the team is definitely not as far advanced as some initially thought.

Losing Gardiner is a massive help. They need to wait until Marleau and Horton (for bonus reasons) are gone. They will probably trade Nylander for defensive help at some point next year, especially if Bracco looks like a mainstay.

They'll have to wait for Sandin/Lillybust to graduate. Once they have a core of Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Rielly and Andersen and decide to commit to filling out the roster with not only skill, but size, then they should find some success in the playoffs.

They're a shoe in for the playoffs next year and will play Boston again, so they have a year to sort some of it out. I'd move Johnsson as well if i was management.

Muzzin looks like a decent 2nd pairing guy, although i question the timing of the trade. To me, a trade like that should have occurred this offseason, but whatevs.

As goofy as it is, I think it's belief / confidence. Parity in the NHL is a pretty true thing. Now rebuilding teams and weak teams can believe whatever they want - it's not going to fix those problems. But when a moderately good team starts really believing they can be a great team, then they gain confidence and start executing on the things that make them successful. I think the ability to sustain that level of play is what sets those teams apart from one another.

I don't think the Leafs have that belief and confidence. I know that Boston does.

And I think Torts and Trotz (which is basically the same name, WTF?) have their teams believing and executing as a result.

I also think it helped that both Pittsburgh and Tampa thought those series were going to be a cakewalk.
- Monkeypunk

100%. I don't think a lot of these guys think they can oust the Bruins over a 7 game series.

In fairness, SJ was given a gift last night.
- RogerRoeper

Meh, they won. came back from a 3 goal deficit.

a GM can only do so much in less than a year. He made a huge move adding Muzzin.
And he added Tavares (I expect you to give zero credit for this), but if you beleive Tavares himself , well they sold him on Toronto
- senstroll

those were the 'easy' moves as in everybody could have thought of making those moves.
adding a superstar UFA - zero risk and straightforward move.
adding Muzzin (a player on trade block) - not a lot of risk (although I still believe it was a significant overpayment by Dubas).

difficult situations were, were some risk was involved and hard decisions needed to be made:
- Nylander contract (really badly handled - he went the easy way - giving Nylander what he wanted instead of trading him or sitting him for a year)
- backup goalie (total failure decision - he went the 'easy way' with the young guy)
- trade Kapanen yes/no for upgrade on D? (did nothing - risk averse again)
- trade Johnsson yes/no for upgrade on D? (did nothing - easy way)
- sign Marner to a 8-10million AAV contract before this season or not? (nothing done there - now Marner will come in at 11million+).
- other trade deadline deals to provide some depth for playoffs - nothing done (Petan was obviously a move not aimed at these playoffs). Simmonds, Zuccharello, Lovejoy, Del Zotto, and about 50 other players all were moved.. nothing was done by Dubas.

So my point is that Dubas just only took a few obvious actions - actions anybody could have thought of. Nothing else done on the more difficult issues.

Brian Burke said it best. Matthews had a couple "good" games. Other than that, he didn't do much. Yeah, he hit a couple empty nets after great passes. Outside of that, there was one awesome shot (game 6).

Other people get blamed for his -3 yesterday, but where was HIS offense. I don't want to hear about his linemates. He is about to be the second highest paid player in the game.

You think he is anywhere even close to that discussion?

The truth is, this entire team failed. I really suspect something is fundamentally wrong in this organization again.
- Aetherial

Way off, IMO. Even if this team was perfect, we still could have lost. It takes way more than a perfect team to win. Look at Tampa.
You guys are acting like this was the only shot to win a cup
Backup goaltender aside, we were better this year than last year.
I expect there will be tweaks, and we'll be better next year than this year. It's called growth. Junk will be moved out and hopefully replaced with better personnel in all positions, including coaches.
The foundation of this team is just fine.