I mean when you filter out the dudes that faced less than 50 shootout shots, he's pretty high up there. Higher if you filter out dudes that faced less than 100. Flower's shootout performance is something I'll never knock him over.
- Victoro311

I think his point was more to show that Hank is just as good as Fleury in the shootout.

I don't really see how Brodeur isn't considered at the least Top 5.
- j.boyd919

Top 5 sure. But not before ma boi hasek. He is the greatest goalie I've seen play other than Roy.

Top 5 sure. But not before ma boi hasek. He is the greatest goalie I've seen play other than Roy.
- DeflatedPucks

Ed Balfour was my fav back in the day.....Id put Roy, Hasak, Brodeur and Balfour way above Lundquist.

Ed Balfour was my fav back in the day.....Id put Roy, Hasak, Brodeur and Balfour way above Lundquist.
- sammy87

Is Balfour better than Belfour? Regardless, neither one is better or as good as Lundqvist.

I’d argue Henry, Brodeur and Roy are the three best of all time.
- Rinosaur

I think Brodeur gets a little too much credit and Dominick Hasek doesn't get nearly enough credit.

I think Brodeur gets a little too much credit and Dominick Hasek doesn't get nearly enough credit.
- joecool2931

I think we may be giving all of these goalies too much credit for having good numbers in the dead puck giant pad era

I think we may be giving all of these goalies too much credit for having good numbers in the dead puck giant pad era
- gravyboy33

How exactly does the dead puck era different from the last 10ish years? The league average goals per game is pretty similar.

How exactly does the dead luck era different from the last 10ish years? The league average goals per game is pretty similar.
- j.boyd919

You’re correct it’s not any different but to compare these guys with the 70’s and 80’s goalies is like comparing apples to oranges.

You’re correct it’s not any different but to compare these guys with the 70’s and 80’s goalies is like comparing apples to oranges.
- gravyboy33

Oh I definitely agree that athletically they are different and that the game has evolved. (Similar to comparing Brady to guys like Montana and Marino). Different era comparisons are difficult.

The athletes as a whole are just better and the game is evolved and more structured and what not, but I think nowadays the disparity between the players is smaller than its ever been which makes goalies nowadays (Id say like.. mid 90s, with the creation of the butterfly style) more impressive than the goalies from the 50s-80s (athletically at least. But those dudes without masks were savages.)

But to some of those guys mentioned, Bridget, Hasek, Roy... they played through the transition of eras and still put up great numbers.

From Pensburg

Pearson — Brassard — Kessel : -5.04 WAR (the worst in the NHL)

Strange that Sully has hung his hat on that line.

Broken down by player on that line

Pearson (-0.9) Brassard (-5.4) Phil (1.9)

From Pensburg

Pearson — Brassard — Kessel : -5.04 WAR (the worst in the NHL)

Strange that Sully has hung his hat on that line.
- Thorny87

Funny that most of Kessels points are coming away from that line in this winning streak.

From Pensburg

Pearson — Brassard — Kessel : -5.04 WAR (the worst in the NHL)

Strange that Sully has hung his hat on that line.
- Thorny87

It's pretty terrible. I really hope there's a move to be made for Brass and bring in a 3C that's a better fit.

I still think Brassard is a damn good hockey player; he's just not a fit on this team.

The record for when all 3 big C's are in the lineup at same time speaks for itself. Sure, he might not be producing as much as people would like, but he's getting alot less mins and no 1st PP time. At 3 mill I just don't see the Pens getting anyone better and I just don't see him being near as terrible as people are making him out to be.
- MattStrat

I get it. You don't want to change what's working. I'd just say this is a "correlation doesn't equal causation" issue however. Just because they're winning with all 3 doesn't mean Brassard is contributing to the winning. Virtually every statistic says other wise. I think they're winning in spite of players like him, Cullen and a few others.

My reasons for the Pens winning ways are Crosby, Letang, Great PP, Great PK and Goal tending has made a dramatic turn around. Brassard doesn't contribute much of anything to those aspects. I know Crosby won't get the Hart this year, but if ever there was a season for him to get it, it should be this one. I'm convinced we'd be near the bottom of the conference without him.

I get it. You don't want to change what's working. I'd just say this is a "correlation doesn't equal causation" issue however. Just because they're winning with all 3 doesn't mean Brassard is contributing to the winning. Virtually every statistic says other wise. I think they're winning in spite of players like him, Cullen and a few others.

My reasons for the Pens winning ways are Crosby, Letang, Great PP, Great PK and Goal tending has made a dramatic turn around. Brassard doesn't contribute much of anything to those aspects. I know Crosby won't get the Hart this year, but if ever there was a season for him to get it, it should be this one. I'm convinced we'd be near the bottom of the conference without him.
- madmike71

I think you're right in what I have bolded...but...

I still believe in him. This is the same guy everyone thought was starting to look amazing before injury last season. This is the same guy who is a legit 2C on a lot of other teams in this league and this is the same team that has horrible injury luck. He's very affordable depth and with the team 1 point of 1st, I just dont see a need of moving him currently. I also have looked around the league and considered the Pens cap situation and not sure who you're finding to be a better current fit and cap fit.

From Pensburg

Pearson — Brassard — Kessel : -5.04 WAR (the worst in the NHL)

Strange that Sully has hung his hat on that line.

Broken down by player on that line

Pearson (-0.9) Brassard (-5.4) Phil (1.9)
- Thorny87

All coaches do it. They find something to latch onto and never let go haha

A Very English Penguin posted on Pensburg the individual EV_GAR scores from Evolving-Hockey

Jake (7.2) Sid (11.8) Rust (2.3)
Simon (6.2) Geno (2.2) Horny (1.9)
Pearson (-0.9) Brassard (-5.4) Phil (1.9)
ZAR (2.6) Cullen (+3.1) Sheahan (-0.9)

Dumo (8.5) Letang (7.4)
Maatta (+8.5) Riikola (-3.3)
Petterson (-0.4) Johnson (-3.5)

Somethings look right inline with what you'd expect. Others (ie Maatta Cullen) seem to be a bit inflated.

A Very English Penguin posted on Pensburg the individual EV_GAR scores from Evolving-Hockey

Jake (7.2) Sid (11.8) Rust (2.3)
Simon (6.2) Geno (2.2) Horny (1.9)
Pearson (-0.9) Brassard (-5.4) Phil (1.9)
ZAR (2.6) Cullen (+3.1) Sheahan (-0.9)

Dumo (8.5) Letang (7.4)
Maatta (+8.5) Riikola (-3.3)
Petterson (-0.4) Johnson (-3.5)

Somethings look right inline with what you'd expect. Others (ie Maatta Cullen) seem to be a bit inflated.
- Thorny87

Maatta has a +7 goal differential at 5v5 and is positive in high danger chances so I think that is probably why he’s so high, but I also assumed he would be better than most because well, let’s be real, he’s a top 4 defenseman, regardless of his foot speed.

Cullen is also a +1 at 5v5 despite his lines getting SWAMPED in the D zone every game. He’s not positive in any metric other than the +1.

Maatta has a +7 goal differential at 5v5 and is positive in high danger chances so I think that is probably why he’s so high, but I also assumed he would be better than most because well, let’s be real, he’s a top 4 defenseman, regardless of his foot speed.

Cullen is also a +1 at 5v5 despite his lines getting SWAMPED in the D zone every game. He’s not positive in any metric other than the +1.
- j.boyd919

Indeed.

A Very English Penguin posted on Pensburg the individual EV_GAR scores from Evolving-Hockey

Jake (7.2) Sid (11.8) Rust (2.3)
Simon (6.2) Geno (2.2) Horny (1.9)
Pearson (-0.9) Brassard (-5.4) Phil (1.9)
ZAR (2.6) Cullen (+3.1) Sheahan (-0.9)

Dumo (8.5) Letang (7.4)
Maatta (+8.5) Riikola (-3.3)
Petterson (-0.4) Johnson (-3.5)

Somethings look right inline with what you'd expect. Others (ie Maatta Cullen) seem to be a bit inflated.
- Thorny87

I see that Pearson would be positive if not with Brassard... as would Petterson if not with Johnson.

Riikola needs some booth time, hes in over his head.

Simon being that high surprised me, and Rust a bit lower than I expected.

Now I do not fully understand the GAR stat, but with how buried Cullen is with D zone starts, his being positive isn't shocking. If that is a factor in his favor that is... but that would make Sheahan much worse by that logic.

I see that Pearson would be positive if not with Brassard... as would Petterson if not with Johnson.

Riikola needs some booth time, hes in over his head.

Simon being that high surprised me, and Rust a bit lower than I expected.

Now I do not fully understand the GAR stat, but with how buried Cullen is with D zone starts, his being positive isn't shocking. If that is a factor in his favor that is... but that would make Sheahan much worse by that logic.
- Guile

I think Riikola's great camp (frank)ed up his development. I think he should have gotten significant WBS time and instead is either watching games eating nachos or playing poorly. Neither is great for him right now.

I think Riikola's great camp (frank)ed up his development. I think he should have gotten significant WBS time and instead is either watching games eating nachos or playing poorly. Neither is great for him right now.
- Victoro311

(frank)ing BLASPHEMY! Nachos are delicious.

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
Simon-Malkin-Hornqvist
Pearson-Brassard-Kessel
Sheahan-Cullen-Aston-Reese
(Grant)

Dumoulin-Letang
Pettersson-Johnson
Oleksiak-Maatta
(Riikola)

Side note, assumed lines based off of morning skate.

I think Riikola's great camp (frank)ed up his development. I think he should have gotten significant WBS time and instead is either watching games eating nachos or playing poorly. Neither is great for him right now.
- Victoro311

That’s his cumulative stats, but I’m curious to see more recent numbers. Obviously this is based on eye test, but he seems to be improving as he goes.

That’s his cumulative stats, but I’m curious to see more recent numbers. Obviously this is based on eye test, but he seems to be improving as he goes.
- Rinosaur

Over the last 15 games he’s ~30% cf%, ~35% scf, and ~45% hdcf with a -1 5v5 goal differential. He still sucks ass.

https://www.pensburgh.com...anced-stats-sidney-crosby

WAR article for the full lineup from Pensburgh is a good read.