Too bad Stan can't trade with himself
- vabeachbear

He doesn’t have two Stans to give up for one. And if he did, one would have a NMC.

If you look at the return at trades the best return is before the draft and then it falls after and falls again once FA starts july 1st. the offers he got for SAAD, SHARP and LEDDY would have been better after the season but before the draft and before teams spent money on FA's. Its just a fact that between the end of the season and the draft teams have cap space after july 5th most teams have spent it. if you dump sharp for a 5th rounder and keep SAAD would have been way better then trading sharp for 3.3 of salary (who we dumped) and SAAD for AA saving 2.5 on salary. he wanted a 1st for sharp. when he should have just taken the best offer that did not return salary. he got greedy.
- kmw4631

The issue with Bowman, is when he has chosen to gamble, he has come up snake eyes. With the draft, you're not going to find home runs every pick but we got incredibly spoiled with the job Tallon and his team did. I rate Bowman a C. He won some deals that got us cups (Handzus, Vermette and Leddy) and he swung and missed on deals like the Saad trade.

Where he has really dropped the ball has been in the contract negotiation. Signing guys to appropriate term and condition. Over paying a guy by a million bucks is one thing, overpaying him 3 million with a NMC is very difficult to overlook. Where and when to pull the trigger hasn't been his strong suit either.

Re Leddy: also include Sharp.

Wasn't dealing those guys, it was waiting until the midnight hour and getting bent over that was the problem.

That is why I really liked the Strome deal. That was more ruthless and i think they should be more aggressive with the assets they have.
- fattybeef

When the discussion of Leddy first appeared on this thread the very first thing I thought of was that the trade was literally not made until the last possible second. It was ridiculous.

As much as I loved Brent Seabrook and what he did for the Hawks, Bowman's bloated over termed contract to the declining defenseman is unforgivable. But as you say, many of the other moves were done with the right intent but with not only no leverage but he was behind the proverbial rock and a hard place. I still hate the trade that sent Danault to Montreal but he was trying to get the Hawks over the top. Why Weise and Fleischmann weren't utilized by Q is a question no one seems to really know. That may be on Bowman? The signings this summer for Ward, manning and others are terrible.

Three cups and the way Bowman manouvered around the cap issues to win in '13 and '15 and Mistakes aside (Gus, Ward, Manning etc) I think he has Management's confidence, hopefully with a tight leash.
- paulr

I agree. The two deals that infuriate me the most is: the Seabrook contract when the money would have been better served to resign Saad and Shaw instead of paying him 7M until he's 40 smh and the Weise and Fleischmann for Danault and 2nd deal when we had depth on the team and needed to add a 4th defender to go with Keith, Seabrook, and Hammer. It was a horrible trade that the Hawks got basically no return on since Q would barely play them, as you stated (maybe it was partially to do with his frustration over not getting the 4th D-Man you know he was asking for), and then they walked away for nothing while Danault has become a VERY solid middle six Center for the Canadians.

The signings this summer (besides the Rutta extension before the end of the year smh; still say this had more to do with keeping good relations in Europe than anything else) were done by Stan because he KNEW this team was not ready to compete this year for a Cup and he wanted to bring in some veterans to help bring a long some of the young kids while not tying up our cap space going into next year and beyond. We already have about 20M to work with (about 5-6 will go to our RFAs) so really like 14M or so (maybe more if they trade AA or Keith or maybe even Crow's remaining one year left whether he plays or not) to go and get an impact Forward FA to put into our Top Six (Panarin or Stone), along with our likely Top 5 pick (who possibly could be on the team next year), and a plethora of Defensive prospects on the way who will make up our backend for the next five years while we still have Kane and Toews signed.

Not saying that we're gonna get back to the Cup next year or even the year after that, the team needs to be put together (and I mean actual team with guys playing specific roles, not a collection of talents like they have had recently) and gel before we can even talk about that, but I can see them getting back to at least fighting for a Playoff spot with the right few moves happening.

When the discussion of Leddy first appeared on this thread the very first thing I thought of was that the trade was literally not made until the last possible second. It was ridiculous.
- Z3Hawk

I will give Stan credit, the move to get Leddy in the first place was theft!

I will give Stan credit, the move to get Leddy in the first place was theft!
- nickmo2699

Hard to give him any credit when Leddy was barely in Chicago long enough to memorize the route to the arena.

I believe Forsling is the real deal. Unlike Gus he has a full game, D and O and attempts to play responsibly. At the end of the day you want your D-Men to have quiet games. Maybe safely chip in offensively. Play responsible D. Gus is NEVER quiet. There are 2 huge issues with Gus. 1 he is a dangerous key turnover machine on the ice. 2 he affects everyone else on the ice with him. His partner and the other players do not know what he is going to do.

When Colliton said the team could live game to game with Gus turnovers it was insane.
- Z3Hawk

I don't think he moves laterally enough to close off the ice like a guy of his size needs. Jokiharju does this well. And i don't see a whole lot of offensive upside.

Think hes a guy you sell high on while you can still fool someone into believing the "potential".

A guy like Dahlstrom who isnt noticable but has some size and refrains from stupid (I'd loop Murphy in there too) are better options then a tweener like Forsling.

Though I would agree that Forsling is a better option than cowboy Gus.

Hard to give him any credit when Leddy was barely in Chicago long enough to memorize the route to the arena.
- Z3Hawk

If Leddy needed 5 years to figure out his way to the UC, why are you so upset he's gone?

I read a little about the WJC: sounded like enwistle looks solid but maybe more of a 4th line center that is good on the PK. Mtichell was not mentioned much good or bad which means he was fine. probably a middle pairing guy with Med OFF upside. Kurashev scored a goal and sounded like he was one of the best swiss players.

I'm a season ticket holder and what Some of the hawks mangment might not understand is at this point there are allot of big Hockey fans in Chicago. I would rather watch Dahlstrom and Murphy then Keith and Seabs, I would rather watch Kampf then AA. Delia over ward ETC. anybody that is older then Teows and Kane and not going to be contributor's on a team that is going to win rounds in the playoffs. I know Seabs is untradable but AA and Keith would seem to have some value. if we are going to lose and we have been lets lose with the young guys. I don't buy that young guys need to learn from Vets by watching. What are they learning right now. They need to play and be coached. that was one my one problem with Q is he seemed like he did not want to teach the young guys. IE not a great communicator with the younger players. Benching a guy and not speaking ot him makes no sense to me for a 21 year old. a 29 yes but he rarely did that with his older players. if they could have had Q embrace the youth movement and Start really teaching the game he would have had a lot of credibility.
- kmw4631

I think that most of us season ticket holders agree with this.

We all loved and embraced the 10 years of excitement that the youthful CORE brought us, but it's managements fault for the NMC's and over-aggressive contracts given out.

Now it's time for Rocky to own up to their mistakes and figure out how to move his team forward with a NEW youthful and hockey minded management staff. He made the first step in authorizing the hiring the young Colliton but needs to continue by replacing McD and Bowman as well. They are more of the reason that this team has digressed more in the last 3 years than Quenneville. Sooner or later Mr. Wirtz will see the light, and hopefully it won't take an empty 100 level for him to react.

I also expect a severe decrease in season ticket prices for next year if I'm even going to consider re-upping again. There is no way that prices for a last place team 2 years in a row should stay constant. Therefore, somebody better be able to come it here and figure out a way to move the big salary guys to teams that will be interested. NMC's or not, great management finds a way.
In the mean time, YES, I want to see the kids, not a floundering and don't GAF approach of the older CORE players like........... ah nevermind...... no need to point the finger at those couple !!!

I think that most of us season ticket holders agree with this.

We all loved and embraced the 10 years of excitement that the youthful CORE brought us, but it's managements fault for the NMC's and over-aggressive contracts given out.

Now it's time for Rocky to own up to their mistakes and figure out how to move his team forward with a NEW youthful and hockey minded management staff. He made the first step in authorizing the hiring the young Colliton but needs to continue by replacing McD and Bowman as well. They are more of the reason that this team has digressed more in the last 3 years than Quenneville. Sooner or later Mr. Wirtz will see the light, and hopefully it won't take an empty 100 level for him to react.

I also expect a severe decrease in season ticket prices for next year if I'm even going to consider re-upping again. There is no way that prices for a last place team 2 years in a row should stay constant. Therefore, somebody better be able to come it here and figure out a way to move the big salary guys to teams that will be interested. NMC's or not, great management finds a way.
In the mean time, YES, I want to see the kids, not a floundering and don't GAF approach of the older CORE players like........... ah nevermind...... no need to point the finger at those couple !!!
- Hawkytalk

What "over aggresive contracts" do you mean?

Hard to give him any credit when Leddy was barely in Chicago long enough to memorize the route to the arena.
- Z3Hawk

What?

If Leddy needed 5 years to figure out his way to the UC, why are you so upset he's gone?
- paulr

Barely enough time for a cup of coffee,eh?

Each game makes me realize how sweet the Schmaltz trade was. Big Strome guy here. He does a lot that Schmaltz did not do. Not dogging Schmaltz, but I think Strome is the better player for Chicago

Glad to see Perlini is starting to come around. He has a great shot that I hope he'll unleash more. Good speed/size, too.

Each game makes me realize how sweet the Schmaltz trade was. Big Strome guy here. He does a lot that Schmaltz did not do. Not dogging Schmaltz, but I think Strome is the better player for Chicago

Glad to see Perlini is starting to come around. He has a great shot that I hope he'll unleash more. Good speed/size, too.
- Hank3Henshaw

The trade cracked me up for people who hated it. We traded a C/W with speed and some scoring touch for an ACTUAL Center and a Winger with speed both capable of scoring. What was there to hate about with the deal? Unless you loved Schmaltz that much and really though he was gonna be a Top line player on a Stanley Cup winning team...in that case I'd like to know where you get your stuff from my friend lmao

With the Strome trade, Bowman had leverage. When the Hawks were always under seige because of the cap Bowman had no leverage. I want to see what Bowman can do without all the restrictions he had when he made previous trades. Lets see if he can scam a team who are in cap hell and need to move a body(s). Also we'll see if he can take on a bad Bickell like deal and get the team to include a good young prospect.
- paulr

That is true. When he took over the team they were in extreme cap hell because of the depth they had and the situation they were in contract wise. He has made some bad moves but some of the deals were good too.

The deal to get Frolik was great.
The fact he was able to trade away Brian Campbell's huge contract was pretty good.
I didn't mind Brouwer for a 1st (Phillip Danault) - I believe they just needed to dump salary at the time.
Oduya for a 2nd and 3rd worked out well.
Hanzuzs for a 4th was good depth.
When we had to dump Frolik for $$ reasons - we got back the picks that were John Hayden and Luke Johnson. At least those guys are still here and there is some potential to play in the NHL. Not terrible, but not a homerun trade either.
Having to move Bolland got us 3 picks, one of which was Carl Dahlstrom, who might now hold down a defensive role for us.
Getting back Versteeg at half price was a pretty good deal too. They gave up Jimmy Hayes and Dylan Olsen.
2 draft picks 3rd and 5th for Pirri was good.
A 3rd for Bollig was good.
Forsling for Clendening was good.
Desjardins for Smith wasn't bad for us.
Vermette for Dahlbeck and a 1st turned out pretty well.
Panik for Morin was a good one.
Shaw for two 2nds was pretty damn good, since one is Alex Debrincat.
The Hartman trade may still turn out to be great, even if Edjsell flops, because we got Beaudin and Kurashev.

There are some misses and bad trades and made Stan will be replaced, but it hasn't been all bad considering the position they were in.

I noticed the same. Haven't heard anything about him the past few years and it seems like he's starting to develop a bit more now. Idk what his ceiling really is. I think he is kinda going from Hawks prospect in Juniors to possibly Icehog depth guy and work his way up from there. Like I said, I don't know much about him other than that seems to be what his trajectory is currently at
- Savetheembers33

Yeah, I figure Ryczyk may top out as an AHL defender. Decent at that level but probably not enough for the NHL. Kind of like Raddysh, Tuulola, Snuggerud, etc.

what we should have done is traded Roz and or not given Roz a 2 year deal at 2.25, then we could have kept leddy 1 more year and then traded him or resigned him ETC, instead of being forced to trade a young top 4 d man for What my dog does every morning.
- kmw4631

Resigning Roz has Q's fingerprints all over it. I think it came down to Odyua or Leddy going and at that point in their careers the choice was easy.

BTW, Leddy is still the same player he was back then. Great skater, good puck mover, Horrible in his own end

That is true. When he took over the team they were in extreme cap hell because of the depth they had and the situation they were in contract wise. He has made some bad moves but some of the deals were good too.

The deal to get Frolik was great.
The fact he was able to trade away Brian Campbell's huge contract was pretty good.
I didn't mind Brouwer for a 1st (Phillip Danault) - I believe they just needed to dump salary at the time.
Oduya for a 2nd and 3rd worked out well.
Hanzuzs for a 4th was good depth.
When we had to dump Frolik for $$ reasons - we got back the picks that were John Hayden and Luke Johnson. At least those guys are still here and there is some potential to play in the NHL. Not terrible, but not a homerun trade either.
Having to move Bolland got us 3 picks, one of which was Carl Dahlstrom, who might now hold down a defensive role for us.
Getting back Versteeg at half price was a pretty good deal too. They gave up Jimmy Hayes and Dylan Olsen.
2 draft picks 3rd and 5th for Pirri was good.
A 3rd for Bollig was good.
Forsling for Clendening was good.
Desjardins for Smith wasn't bad for us.
Vermette for Dahlbeck and a 1st turned out pretty well.
Panik for Morin was a good one.
Shaw for two 2nds was pretty damn good, since one is Alex Debrincat.
The Hartman trade may still turn out to be great, even if Edjsell flops, because we got Beaudin and Kurashev.

There are some misses and bad trades and made Stan will be replaced, but it hasn't been all bad considering the position they were in.
- breadbag

I like each of what you pointed out, and I agree with you. The one I highlighted I was tough on, because I hated it. Smith was a great pk with a pretty memorable goal. I eased up on the trade when 11-16-65 formed a shutdown line that no one had an answer for in 15.

Great researching, BB.

The trade cracked me up for people who hated it. We traded a C/W with speed and some scoring touch for an ACTUAL Center and a Winger with speed both capable of scoring. What was there to hate about with the deal? Unless you loved Schmaltz that much and really though he was gonna be a Top line player on a Stanley Cup winning team...in that case I'd like to know where you get your stuff from my friend lmao
- Savetheembers33

I've liked Strome since he came here. He works hard, shoots, parks his big ass where it needs to be, and has chemistry with Adb. All good.

Perlini, I'm still waiting for him to add to the team. He has 1 goal, off of the hard work and drive that Sikura did to go to the net and almost secured the goal by himself. Perlini has speed, and I'm not ruling him out as a decent bottom contributer. I just wish he would make himself as noticeable as Slow-Poke Strome, haha.

Well speaking of narrative, it was NOT Oduya OR Leddy. Bowman was hoping to retain Leddy, but was unable to get anything done financially and had to MOVE Leddy. The not-so-brilliant move of trading him the day before the season was to begin when he has ZERO leverage and thus had to trade a talented young puck moving D-man for absolute garbage.

I am so not sure where the Oduya or Leddy thing came along, but whatever.

"Some" of the blame? This jalopy is his, period. Some "questionable" moves? He gave away quality resources for Dale Weiss, Kimo Timmonen, think it would have helped to have Danaut and THREE 2nd round picks right about now? The idiocy of trading for Rundblad, again TWO more 2nd round picks, one of those picks turned into Christian Dvorak, not a bad young piece. Toss in the bloated salaries and NTCs, I will give him a pass on 19 salary, hell if you want give him a pass for 7s salary, but the NTCs is mildly absurd, NTCs to depth players.

We've beaten the bowman horse to death, each side has taken their stance, I get it.

Bowman's good moves that I see?
--Trading FOR Leddy (move sorta negated by how Leddy was shipped out)
--Trading for Oduya, Frolik, late season acquisition in 2015 of Vermette. Imagine had he moved for Vermette one year sooner? You probably have four Cups in Chicago
--Draft picks of Shaw and Saad were good, Jokiharu looks promising

Generally speaking the Hawks won Cups pretty much totally because of a core group of players gifted to Bowman, he had nothing to do with Sharp, Toews, Kane, Hossa, Seabs, Keith, Hammer, Crawford. Sure, adding Oduya and a couple other depth pieces along the way "helped" (in some way), but the Cups really are the result of what happened before Bowman got there.
- kwolf68

I actually disagree. Looks at Stan's draft classes. Each one has at least 1-2 solid NHL players. Problem is so few of them are on the Hawks.

The two bad drafts are '14 and '15 where you have Schmaltz and maybe Sikura in '14. '15 draft looks like a complete bust.

Stan has also found some real gems in free agency.

To me Stan's biggest issue comes down to negotiating contracts and holding on to assets too long/asset mismanagement. Having Stephen Johns on the team as a solid big physical 4-5 Defensemen would have hypothetically given him more leverage negotiating with an aging Seabrook (if Stan has the stones to negotiate in such a manner).

Sharp trade, Leddy trade, and trade for Kimo are all huge blunders as far as asset management.

I think talent evaluation for the most part is good (every team is going to have their Runblads).

That is true. When he took over the team they were in extreme cap hell because of the depth they had and the situation they were in contract wise. He has made some bad moves but some of the deals were good too.

The deal to get Frolik was great.
The fact he was able to trade away Brian Campbell's huge contract was pretty good.
I didn't mind Brouwer for a 1st (Phillip Danault) - I believe they just needed to dump salary at the time.
Oduya for a 2nd and 3rd worked out well.
Hanzuzs for a 4th was good depth.
When we had to dump Frolik for $$ reasons - we got back the picks that were John Hayden and Luke Johnson. At least those guys are still here and there is some potential to play in the NHL. Not terrible, but not a homerun trade either.
Having to move Bolland got us 3 picks, one of which was Carl Dahlstrom, who might now hold down a defensive role for us.
Getting back Versteeg at half price was a pretty good deal too. They gave up Jimmy Hayes and Dylan Olsen.
2 draft picks 3rd and 5th for Pirri was good.
A 3rd for Bollig was good.
Forsling for Clendening was good.
Desjardins for Smith wasn't bad for us.
Vermette for Dahlbeck and a 1st turned out pretty well.
Panik for Morin was a good one.
Shaw for two 2nds was pretty damn good, since one is Alex Debrincat.
The Hartman trade may still turn out to be great, even if Edjsell flops, because we got Beaudin and Kurashev.

There are some misses and bad trades and made Stan will be replaced, but it hasn't been all bad considering the position they were in.
- breadbag

Can't argue with facts as much as I hate Stan for some of the moves he's made

Yeah, I figure Ryczyk may top out as an AHL defender. Decent at that level but probably not enough for the NHL. Kind of like Raddysh, Tuulola, Snuggerud, etc.
- AEL_Fox

Yeah though I wouldn't be shocked to see all or at least one of them get a shot in the NHL. Raddysh especially considering the season he's having on a bad Rockford team. Haven't got to see him play so I can't comment on that really, but I could see JC wanting to give him a shot in the NHL at some point depending on how injuries, trades, etc. play out on the backend.

I've liked Strome since he came here. He works hard, shoots, parks his big ass where it needs to be, and has chemistry with Adb. All good.

Perlini, I'm still waiting for him to add to the team. He has 1 goal, off of the hard work and drive that Sikura did to go to the net and almost secured the goal by himself. Perlini has speed, and I'm not ruling him out as a decent bottom contributer. I just wish he would make himself as noticeable as Slow-Poke Strome, haha.
- I Am The Breadman

I feel ya. I guess my perspective was that I was hoping by trading one lottery ticket for two we would have a better shot of getting a player who can really be a difference maker on this team. It appears as though we may have that with Strome on the team. He looks like he can be a legit #2 (at least) on this team and something to build off of so in that aspect we already achieved what I had wanted to and we still have a lottery ticket with Perlini. Gotta think having Strome's best friend on the team made his transition A LOT easier and thus why you are seeing the results (also the overall skill level) sooner with him than Perlini. Even if he tops out as a bottom six forward with speed and some scoring touch I'd gladly take it. Give him some more time to build some chemistry on this team and I think you'll see him shine in spots more often.

While I get the hate against Gus, I do see why the Hawks like him in the lineup. JC was recently talking about what he felt Gus could do if he gets more consistency in his game.

While they are not identical players or situations, I remember when the team picked up Johnny Oduya and he was not considered a "great" defensive option at the time and the big knock Winnipeg fans pointed out was costly turnovers. A lot of the hockey world was talking trash about him at the time and thought he was overpaid. He managed to play pretty well as the #4. I think we need to give the new coaching staff some more time with Gus to see if he can find some balance in his game. He could be an effective player because of the things he can do on the ice.

Again, not saying the situation is 100% the same, but again Gus isn't making 3.5 million a year either. He may not ever be as stead a Oduya, but he definitely has more offensive ability. I think the team will need to evaluate if they feel he will fit into the long term plans and if not, he is someone they could move, or bury easy. Almost all his cap hit can be buried. It might become a Schmaltz situation where if he doesn't fit into his role soon, they'll move him because he can put up points, so they'll get something in return.

The only line-up change is Johnson in for Krugs.
Delia should be in net tonight, per Powers.

The only line-up change is Johnson in for Krugs.
Delia should be in net tonight, per Powers.
- I Am The Breadman

Nice. That is pretty much my guess from yesterday.

I notice they still list AA as the 2C, it was Strome playing C in the game. I'm curious to see who actually plays the role next game.