JVR is not the kind of player who is going to create his own offense, he needs to have a quality playmaker who can feed him the puck where he likes it, in order for him to score with any regularity.
RE Coots
Did he make a bad play on the OT goal? Yup, without question. However, the real question comes in 2 parts:
A. Should have he been out there to start the OT?
Answer: IMO, no. You go all out to win in OT. The starting trio should have been G, Jake and Ghost
B. Are they overusing and over relying on Coots?
Answer yes: At the start of OT he had played over 23 minutes. That is simply too much ice time for a forward. He does this way too often and it's going to cause him to become fatigued late in games and thus make mistakes
What is the solution?
They have 2 choices. One, you go out and pick up another quality center who is at least a strong 3C who can step up on a 2nd line when needed. Or, you move Giroux to center. Laughton, Weal and Lehtera are not top 9 centers, no amount of tinkering with their linemates will make them top 9 centers.
Until a trade is made, my lines would be:
TK-Coots-Jake
JVR-Giroux-Raffl
Lindblom-Patrick-Simmonds
Laughton-Lehtera-Weise
And, if you really want an optimal lineup, you waive Neuvirth as soon as Elliott is good to go, and bring up NAK. Lehtera can join Weal in the Cote Suite and your 4th line is Weise-Laughton-NAK
All four lines have some size, and at least a couple guys who are average or better NHL skaters. The top 2 lines each have a quality playmaker and guys that can finish. They also have at least one quality defensive forward too. The 3rd line is a big line with skill that can play the cycle game and won't hurt you in any zone and the upgraded 4th line has wheels, a bit of size and grit and a bit of skill.
IMO, this is the best forward lineup they can ice without making a deal. - BiggE
I feel like JVR and Simmer are too similar in the way they play and they team as you state really lacks more guys like G who can set things up...
I don't know that I blame Coots as much as I blame Provy for the OT goal...Provy was almost standing in no mans land as he half commited to get the puck but was way out of position to cover for Coots as Jones swept in from the opposite side...I still l think this has to do with Provy thinking to much...I hope Wilson can use these as teaching moments and get Ghost and Provy to think less and go back to what got them to the NHL...they both have high hockey instincts...they have just been overthinking all of this too much, but when you give up soft goals like we do, they know every mistake will be amplified, so no surprises I suppose...
i would also say that in the last 1 minute of Regulation I did not like the choices Hak made...he put TK and G back out on the ice (or kept them out, i don't remember) but they ended up gased and I knew they would not be able to start the TK, G, Ghost line for OT...I felt that as i was watching the end of regulation this was going to be a bad call...it was just a feeling...but that first minute of OT is usually where we can jump on a team with those three on the ice...
For me, I don't move G to center...he is done at center in the NHL...not that he can't play it, but he is so much more effective with a 180ft game vs the 200ft required of a center. I think he knows it too..I also think that is what PK did in Chicago...if G is going to continue to produce for a long time and even be available in the few more years it will take to get this thing turned around, he has to stay at wing...
That is why i think you look for a center first (While Patrick continues to grow and learn in a 3 C role) and then look for a goalie if you don't think Stolie and Elliot can get it done. Third decision is to look for a solid defensive D-man (or just wait to see what Myers or Morin will become and live with the D you have...and fix the over all team D to help more...
Location: Driver's Seat: Mitch Marner bandwagon. Grab 'em by the Corsi. Joined: 02.04.2009
Dec 7 @ 8:26 AM ET
Based on the way he played in the second half of last season, I think we all expected Patrick to make a leap forward in his play given he was 100% healthy and had a full off season to prepare. - MBFlyerfan
Patrick scores almost all of his goals on tips and rebounds in front of the net.
JVR scores almost all of his goals on tips and rebounds in front of the net.
Simmonds scores almost all of his goals on tips and rebounds in front of the net.
It's a really odd trio of players to put together on the same line.
I think that at least part of the issue with Patrick is that he doesn't have the same linemates from game to game ... or even shift to shift. When he has a consistent pair of linemates he has shown he can be a contributor.
Overall, last night the D as a group looked marginally better, the outlets were quicker and to zones instead of to individuals, which is an easier play for the defense. AMac looked shaky and will someone admit that Provorov is playing hurt? There is clearly something wrong. He can't extend to the one side and he actually looks like he did in the last few games of the playoffs.
Stoli looked good...he let in a gimme, but he also made several 10 bell saves. I would run with him and spot whomever they are going to spot until some kind of longer term decisions are clear.
Who does Wayne Simmonds have pictures of that everyone talks about hims like he is a sainted figure?
I actually giggled like a school girl with happiness thst they put that pairing together late to try and tie it. Maybe sanheim could take that pp2 spot from provy so he could re focus his game some. - Tfaehner
Can we please for the love of god get Sanheim on pp2
I think that at least part of the issue with Patrick is that he doesn't have the same linemates from game to game ... or even shift to shift. When he has a consistent pair of linemates he has shown he can be a contributor.
Overall, last night the D as a group looked marginally better, the outlets were quicker and to zones instead of to individuals, which is an easier play for the defense. AMac looked shaky and will someone admit that Provorov is playing hurt? There is clearly something wrong. He can't extend to the one side and he actually looks like he did in the last few games of the playoffs.
Stoli looked good...he let in a gimme, but he also made several 10 bell saves. I would run with him and spot whomever they are going to spot until some kind of longer term decisions are clear.
Who does Wayne Simmonds have pictures of that everyone talks about hims like he is a sainted figure? - wbon22
I think Patrick needs a player like Panarin. A more shoot first type. I feel Patrick is more a play maker and Could use a winger with some speed and shoot first mentality.
This might not sound right but the flyers have some scorers.....they just don't have a guy who can snipe for you when needed.
Was just coming here to post this. I get last year coming off the hernia surgery.
He's currently without a point in 9 straight games. Unacceptable. Figures of course there is no Laine, or Eichel when the Flyers have the second pick. Part and parcel to the black cloud that hovers over this franchise.
Solid OT performance.
5 wins in 14 home games. That is pathetic.
landros 2 Season Ticket Holder Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe Joined: 02.07.2007
Dec 7 @ 8:42 AM ET
I thought the Flyers were flat for long stretches in the first two periods last night....I actually thought they would build on Saturdays game, but they let the jackets dictate the play. Stollie played OK after that first one, but in the end does anyone really see him as an answer to their goaltending issues?
The OT goal is simply a dumb play by Coots and a poor reaction by Provy. I didn't think they deserved much of anything last night, so I guess you live with a loser point. I understand starting those three in OT, but IMO you always start Giroux. Coots is a nice hockey player, but its a skill competition at 3 on 3 and Giroux in in a different stratosphere then Coots on a skill level.
Was just coming here to post this. I get last year coming off the hernia surgery.
He's currently without a point in 9 straight games. Unacceptable. Figures of course there is no Laine, or Eichel when the Flyers have the second pick. Part and parcel to the black cloud that hovers over this franchise.
Solid OT performance. - PLindbergh31
See the previous post...he has 2 linemates that are similar to him in style of play...he is also struggling to transition his gameo the NHL...he will be great for the Flyers for years to come...just having an off year...and just because he had an off season doesn't mean he has really transitioned to the Professional life where hockey is an almost 365 day a year endeavour
Location: The East Coast Dump, NJ Joined: 10.12.2015
Dec 7 @ 8:46 AM ET
I thought the Flyers were flat for long stretches in the first two periods last night....I actually thought they would build on Saturdays game, but they let the jackets dictate the play. Stollie played OK after that first one, but in the end does anyone really see him as an answer to their goaltending issues?
The OT goal is simply a dumb play by Coots and a poor reaction by Provy. I didn't think they deserved much of anything last night, so I guess you live with a loser point. I understand starting those three in OT, but IMO you always start Giroux. Coots is a nice hockey player, but its a skill competition at 3 on 3 and Giroux in in a different stratosphere then Coots on a skill level. - landros 2
As I said earlier the Coots-TK-Provy OT line is driven by TK. Not sure why everyone focuses just on Coots.
I thought the Flyers were flat for long stretches in the first two periods last night....I actually thought they would build on Saturdays game, but they let the jackets dictate the play. Stollie played OK after that first one, but in the end does anyone really see him as an answer to their goaltending issues?
The OT goal is simply a dumb play by Coots and a poor reaction by Provy. I didn't think they deserved much of anything last night, so I guess you live with a loser point. I understand starting those three in OT, but IMO you always start Giroux. Coots is a nice hockey player, but its a skill competition at 3 on 3 and Giroux in in a different stratosphere then Coots on a skill level. - landros 2
I think after coming back after losing all of last year from surgery he looks better than I thought he would...he still has work to do, but I do see him as a capable #2 as he continues to grow.
See the previous post...he has 2 linemates that are similar to him in style of play...he is also struggling to transition his gameo the NHL...he will be great for the Flyers for years to come...just having an off year...and just because he had an off season doesn't mean he has really transitioned to the Professional life where hockey is an almost 365 day a year endeavour - JW98FlyerFan
We'll see. If his ceiling as the 2nd pick in a draft is a 45-50 point two way center, that is pretty underwhelming imo.
landros 2 Season Ticket Holder Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe Joined: 02.07.2007
Dec 7 @ 8:50 AM ET
Was just coming here to post this. I get last year coming off the hernia surgery.
He's currently without a point in 9 straight games. Unacceptable. Figures of course there is no Laine, or Eichel when the Flyers have the second pick. Part and parcel to the black cloud that hovers over this franchise.
Solid OT performance. - PLindbergh31
Patrick is definitely in a bit of a struggle. He's young though. To me he hasn't developed under Hak at a decent level.….although some seem to feel all these kids are developing just fine under Hak...I don't see it. I've seen our two best defenseman regress this year....Sanheim, has come along slow. Lindblom is on a 4th line. Konecny is producing, but with Giroux on your line that shouldn't surprise anyone. To me this team needs a different leader...a different voice.
Hextall even suggested on his way out the door that that group had not taken a step forward? to me that's on the coach that Hextall was so loyal too. One of the reaons why you were fired Ronnie.
I get what your saying but I also understand Hakstols strategy. He uses his top defender and selke nominated center to go against the other teams top line and then follows that with Giroux's trio where they should get a favorable matchup.
- J35Bacher
Columbus put out Atkinson and Wennberg. Columbus top line in that situation would have Panarin on it. More likely they were trying to get Giroux away from Jones.
landros 2 Season Ticket Holder Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe Joined: 02.07.2007
Dec 7 @ 8:51 AM ET
I think after coming back after losing all of last year from surgery he looks better than I thought he would...he still has work to do, but I do see him as a capable #2 as he continues to grow. - JW98FlyerFan
I see him as a decent # 2...not yet...but I think he can develop into that.
landros 2 Season Ticket Holder Philadelphia Flyers
Location: Centre of universe Joined: 02.07.2007
Dec 7 @ 8:52 AM ET
As I said earlier the Coots-TK-Provy OT line is driven by TK. Not sure why everyone focuses just on Coots. - dragonoffrost
just because it was his horrid pass that led to the goal 10 seconds in.
That one sequence where he got like 5 on Provorov pissed me off because from my seat I could see the ref looking right at it and no call. It was like the ref was waiting for a retaliation to call both guys. - dragonoffrost
The bigger problem is after that Laughton gives a guy one cross check and he gets called. NHL officiating at its finest.
We'll see. If his ceiling as the 2nd pick in a draft is a 45-50 point two way center, that is pretty underwhelming imo. - PLindbergh31
I dont see that I think he could be every bit as good as coots if not better. Defensively responsible. And hes got a way better shot. Coots has a staple in g on his wing who has been one the best offensive players in hockey for the past 10 years. As he develops and if we get him quality wingers like that he will be fine.
But I'm not expecting that this year. It may take him another year or 2. I'd love a center like Coyle from Minnesota as a 3c fringe 2c to let Patrick develop more.
Location: The East Coast Dump, NJ Joined: 10.12.2015
Dec 7 @ 8:53 AM ET
We'll see. If his ceiling as the 2nd pick in a draft is a 45-50 point two way center, that is pretty underwhelming imo. - PLindbergh31
If he gives those points as 2C until they move him to 1C that is 2C production. The 31st center in points last year was 63 so I'm not going to kill the kid with his usage so far.
Hak is excelling at managing minutes now that the shackles are finally off. Defensive linchpin Andrew MacDonald is averaging almost as much ice time as the two flaky young guys from the 2014 draft that Hextall burdened him with - Lousy Lindblom and Sloppy Sanheim.
I feel like JVR and Simmer are too similar in the way they play and they team as you state really lacks more guys like G who can set things up...
I don't know that I blame Coots as much as I blame Provy for the OT goal...Provy was almost standing in no mans land as he half commited to get the puck but was way out of position to cover for Coots as Jones swept in from the opposite side...I still l think this has to do with Provy thinking to much...I hope Wilson can use these as teaching moments and get Ghost and Provy to think less and go back to what got them to the NHL...they both have high hockey instincts...they have just been overthinking all of this too much, but when you give up soft goals like we do, they know every mistake will be amplified, so no surprises I suppose...
i would also say that in the last 1 minute of Regulation I did not like the choices Hak made...he put TK and G back out on the ice (or kept them out, i don't remember) but they ended up gased and I knew they would not be able to start the TK, G, Ghost line for OT...I felt that as i was watching the end of regulation this was going to be a bad call...it was just a feeling...but that first minute of OT is usually where we can jump on a team with those three on the ice...
For me, I don't move G to center...he is done at center in the NHL...not that he can't play it, but he is so much more effective with a 180ft game vs the 200ft required of a center. I think he knows it too..I also think that is what PK did in Chicago...if G is going to continue to produce for a long time and even be available in the few more years it will take to get this thing turned around, he has to stay at wing...
That is why i think you look for a center first (While Patrick continues to grow and learn in a 3 C role) and then look for a goalie if you don't think Stolie and Elliot can get it done. Third decision is to look for a solid defensive D-man (or just wait to see what Myers or Morin will become and live with the D you have...and fix the over all team D to help more... - JW98FlyerFan
If you were Provorov and Couturier had the puck with wide open skating room, complete white ice to the Columbus zone, what would you expect Couturier to do?
The Flyers had Columbus on their heels for the entire 3rd period. With the Flyers in the position they are, with Columbus ahead of them in the standing and it being a Metro game, trying to win in regulation is the right move. Putting your top line out as much late is the right move.
Location: I like cold beverages, NJ Joined: 04.09.2008
Dec 7 @ 8:57 AM ET
I'll agree to disagree. I honestly thought Coots was spent at the end of the game. The mistake he made is the kind of mistake good players make when they are fatigued. Sadly if the team had played a more consistent game throughout, we wouldn't even be talking about the OT today, but it is what it is. - BiggE
If Coots shots the puck into the wide open net instead of into Bob who is completely out of position...
Location: The East Coast Dump, NJ Joined: 10.12.2015
Dec 7 @ 8:59 AM ET
Hak is excelling at managing minutes now that the shackles are finally off. Defensive linchpin Andrew MacDonald is averaging almost as much ice time as the two flaky young guys from the 2014 draft that Hextall burdened him with - Lousy Lindblom and Sloppy Sanheim.
