Clearly a marquis coach is the solution. I mean look at the Capitals. Barry Trotz had major success. wait, he had NEVER WON a second round series.

Well there's Gerard Gallant he had ... uh, never won a series in his career.

Those guys were in the finals not because they cajoled their players to put out an effort. They had rosters of players who wanted to win.
- hockeyal

Well somehow the Flyers have managed to find every NHL player who simply doesn’t give a flying (frank), and more important can’t penalty kill.

Nothing personal, but I highly doubt that.

Stevens, Berube (assistant) and Hak are all burning with their teams.

I’m going to say one thing here. There is obviously more to this than Dave Hakstol. Is the core a group of guys who maybe don’t have that fire that Kimmo or Pronger had? Sure, that may be true. However... Giroux and to a lesser extend Voracek have carried the team on their back for years and any measure of success, any whiff of it has come because of those guys. What have they been sorrounded by for the large part of their prime years?

I don’t disagree with moving one of them if the club feels they bring a lazy and cancerous attitude but somehow I don’t think it’s what is going on. Giroux is our Sundin, and is the last of the team’s problems.
- flyer_nutter

Totally agree about Giroux. He leads by example and work ethic, and he should retire as a Flyer. He is not lazy, and he rarely takes a shift off. Some other high paid players spend a lot of time standing around, and they could be moved while other GMs think they have value. There are a few Brayden Schenns on this roster.

This has literally NOTHING to do with it. The team LOVED Lavy. They loved and respected Chief. But they still didn't show up. Until some heads rolled.

This roster would benefit from some change. Lets bring in some talent and some players who want to work and have something to prove, before we sacrifice a good coach. Other successful teams aren't changing coaches every time they slump. They fix their roster.
- hockeyal

Berube was the reason why Hartnell was shipped out of town and it was widely reported that Scott held Berube responsible. So I don’t know if they loved Berube at all.

The roster has changed pretty dramatically since Laviolette and Berube. The only core regulars who remain are Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier and oddly enough Raffl.

I’m going to say one thing here. There is obviously more to this than Dave Hakstol. Is the core a group of guys who maybe don’t have that fire that Kimmo or Pronger had? Sure, that may be true. However... Giroux and to a lesser extend Voracek have carried the team on their back for years and any measure of success, any whiff of it has come because of those guys. What have they been sorrounded by for the large part of their prime years?

I don’t disagree with moving one of them if the club feels they bring a lazy and cancerous attitude but somehow I don’t think it’s what is going on. Giroux is our Sundin, and is the last of the team’s problems.
- flyer_nutter

I wouldn't move G or Jake. I think one of the issues here is that the D believes all they hype about how great they are offensively. About how they carry the team offensively. So instead of focusing on being great D men, they are constantly thinking about the transition.
If you REALLY want to shake things up and send a message.....trade Ghost

Well somehow the Flyers have managed to find every NHL player who simply doesn’t give a flying (frank), and more important can’t penalty kill.

Nothing personal, but I highly doubt that.

Stevens, Berube (assistant) and Hak are all burning with their teams.
- flyer_nutter

Because its CLEARLY one way or another.

Here's a news flash: The Flyers are just not very good. They have two good scoring lines. They have some high draft picks but none of them are truly elite players. They have one truly good NHL center who can play a two-way game, and he is dinged. They have one top calibre NHL defenseman and he is getting ground down by playing 25 minutes a night. They have no top calibre goaltenders signed to the team. Some of their most important talent is already dinged up or on IR. So what did you expect? Continuity?

A team looks to their top paid players to lead. Some of the top paid players on the Flyers take shifts or parts of shifts off. They coast instead of working. And they make too much money to park them in the press box, no matter how much that would help. This woudl be a better team if a couple of players got Schenned. They will be a better team in 2020 when they get some defensive help.

I wouldn't move G or Jake. I think one of the issues here is that the D believes all they hype about how great they are offensively. About how they carry the team offensively. So instead of focusing on being great D men, they are constantly thinking about the transition.
If you REALLY want to shake things up and send a message.....trade Ghost
- nails

Agree to disagree I suppose. Ghost is nearly untouchable to me anyway.

For poops and giggles, a nutter’s wet dream:

1. Fire Hak, along with the assistants. Knob was brought in, and replaced a highly successful PP coach. The PP has regressed.

-Vigneault hired, brings in the staff of his choosing. I like the idea of maybe waiting for Q, but that is no lock.

2. Simmonds out for the best offer you can find. Aaron Dell in.

3. Myers and Voro back up. Nak remains depending on his play.

I wouldn't move G or Jake. I think one of the issues here is that the D believes all they hype about how great they are offensively. About how they carry the team offensively. So instead of focusing on being great D men, they are constantly thinking about the transition.
If you REALLY want to shake things up and send a message.....trade Ghost
- nails

He would have been part of a package that Ottawa would have taken in return for Karlsson. Now, to get value it would have to be in the form of 1st round picks. Watching him "defend" the 2 on 1 made me as close to throwing something at the TV as I've been in a long time. He made AMac seem graceful.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Ghost is nearly untouchable to me anyway.

For poops and giggles, a nutter’s wet dream:

1. Fire Hak, along with the assistants. Knob was brought in, and replaced a highly successful PP coach. The PP has regressed.

-Vigneault hired, brings in the staff of his choosing. I like the idea of maybe waiting for Q, but that is no lock.

2. Simmonds out for the best offer you can find. Aaron Dell in.

3. Myers and Voro back up. Nak remains depending on his play.
- flyer_nutter

So we are playing for the 1st pick in the draft then? Got it.

You want to play guys who are not ready and reward those who aren't playing hard, but trade the best character guy they have? Wow.

This really isn't what happens when an Andy Reid or a Ken Hitchcock or Peter Laviolette can't get a team to play for him. The players just get complacent and stop listening. That doesn't appear to be what is happening here. I think the players look around and nobody is stepping up and they legitimately doubt there is enough talent in the room.

Everybody was electing Gallant to the HoF last season because of the job he did in Vegas. But the trick was that EVERY guy played hard EVERY night with a chip on their shoulder. They have nothing to prove this year, and even though they have more talent, they are not winning. The most highly touted (I can't bring myself to say they are the "best" players) never play with a chip on their shoulders and are not playing hard day in and day out. No coach can coach away you guys getting outworked. A few blockbuster trades of some "highly touted" players would have got their attention.
- hockeyal

In my opinion that is completely wrong. Each situation is different. The Flyers are making a lot of individual mistakes that is really what is hurting them. They aren't being corrected. I think part of it is talent but not in the way you place it. The Flyers have plenty of talent but some of that talent just isn't ready to pick up the slack when the leaders and top veterans aren't playing well. It's also mental for this team right now.

Panic trades is the last thing the Flyers should do.

It's as effective a solution as what you suggested. Change for the sake of change is asinine.

And even Hitch couldn't get some of these guys to play sound defense. They don't have the ability.
- hockeyal

Also completely wrong. The Flyers were one of the better teams in the league last season defensively 5 on 5.

So we are playing for the 1st pick in the draft then? Got it.

You want to play guys who are not ready and reward those who aren't playing hard, but trade the best character guy they have? Wow.
- hockeyal

I disagree that they aren’t ready.

I’ve wanted Simmonds out for a while. I don’t agree with an extension, and to lose him for nothing is poor management.

Agree to disagree I suppose. Ghost is nearly untouchable to me anyway.

For poops and giggles, a nutter’s wet dream:

1. Fire Hak, along with the assistants. Knob was brought in, and replaced a highly successful PP coach. The PP has regressed.

-Vigneault hired, brings in the staff of his choosing. I like the idea of maybe waiting for Q, but that is no lock.

2. Simmonds out for the best offer you can find. Aaron Dell in.

3. Myers and Voro back up. Nak remains depending on his play.
- flyer_nutter

I'm not condoning moving Ghost. Just saying if you want show and awe, well, thats your ticket.
There was a link today...not sure if it was through Bill...but it brought up the Pronger years. Those teams had skill and nasty. I don't think it mattered who the coach was. But more important, they could play more ways than one. this team can't do that.
I dunno. Im rambling. just really disappointed

Berube was the reason why Hartnell was shipped out of town and it was widely reported that Scott held Berube responsible. So I don’t know if they loved Berube at all.

The roster has changed pretty dramatically since Laviolette and Berube. The only core regulars who remain are Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Couturier and oddly enough Raffl.
- SuperSchennBros

The players you list are literally all of the good veterans on the team, and the ones with heart. Hartnell was always a guy who played hard when he wanted to. If Chief was behind moving him, them it was genius. He is exactly the kind of guy you move to get the room back.

This has literally NOTHING to do with it. The team LOVED Lavy. They loved and respected Chief. But they still didn't show up. Until some heads rolled.

This roster would benefit from some change. Lets bring in some talent and some players who want to work and have something to prove, before we sacrifice a good coach. Other successful teams aren't changing coaches every time they slump. They fix their roster.
- hockeyal

I do want to add something here. Good coach or not, if (and I acknowledge it’s an if) the core is not responding to him, you’re not going to move the entire core. You get rid of the coach. The reason the other coaches have been moved out is because the results were not there under said coach.

IF the coach is the problem (again IF) then you move him out. And to me there is evidence that the coach is being tuned out, but to me that’s speculative.

I do think there are good members to this core and I don’t think the entire core is the problem. I also don’t think this team is as bad as they have been and think they re going to turn it around with a new coach or with Hakstol

That may be the case about the leadership group.

I also don’t think this is a coach that the team really values, but I do have to say this is purely speculative.

Throughout the years, there have been a few quotes about Hak from players that give me reason to believe that is the case. Schenn’s quote about lack of communication and Ghost’s comments about not caring if he got in trouble, just going out to play are the first ones that come to mind.

If you’ve ever played any sport at any sort of level higher than high school you know what a good coach can do. You know what you would do for a coach you really respected. Hak challenged his players last game and they come out with such a horrible effort. To me that speaks volumes about what the words of Hak mean to the club
- VladDrag

One of the most important things to also account for when analyzing a players comments are what the context of the question was.

I do agree that the players response last game is troubling.

So we are playing for the 1st pick in the draft then? Got it.

You want to play guys who are not ready and reward those who aren't playing hard, but trade the best character guy they have? Wow.
- hockeyal

trading Simmer is a smart move, especially if he is scoring at a 30 goal clip

I wouldn't move G or Jake. I think one of the issues here is that the D believes all they hype about how great they are offensively. About how they carry the team offensively. So instead of focusing on being great D men, they are constantly thinking about the transition.
If you REALLY want to shake things up and send a message.....trade Ghost
- nails

No to trading Ghost. He’s such an underrated player on this team.

I disagree that they aren’t ready.

I’ve wanted Simmonds out for a while. I don’t agree with an extension, and to lose him for nothing is poor management.
- flyer_nutter

Not extending Simmonds is idiocy. He should be their captain. Look at the stats. G Jake and Simmer are carrying the team. So we trade him? Sure, that sends the best message. Effort is not what we pay you for.

The players you list are literally all of the good veterans on the team, and the ones with heart. Hartnell was always a guy who played hard when he wanted to. If Chief was behind moving him, them it was genius. He is exactly the kind of guy you move to get the room back.
- hockeyal

So just like Simmer at this stage of his career?

Not extending Simmonds is idiocy. He should be their captain. Look at the stats. G Jake and Simmer are carrying the team. So we trade him? Sure, that sends the best message. Effort is not what we pay you for.
- hockeyal

Strongly disagree on your thoughts on Simmonds.

For what it’s worth, I think the Flyers want to keep him.

I'm not condoning moving Ghost. Just saying if you want show and awe, well, thats your ticket.
There was a link today...not sure if it was through Bill...but it brought up the Pronger years. Those teams had skill and nasty. I don't think it mattered who the coach was. But more important, they could play more ways than one. this team can't do that.
I dunno. Im rambling. just really disappointed
- nails

Pronger teams were madly inconsistent as well, often not showing up until the 3rd-period. Remember 2010, they almost didn't even make the PO's -- everybody remembers Boucher and that SO, but playing really poorly in the stretch run is what made that game do or die. The room was fractured between Prongs and the Richie/Carts crew. Michael Leighton.

Fiery coaching and intimidating vets don't solve everything.

Clearly a marquis coach is the solution. I mean look at the Capitals. Barry Trotz had major success. wait, he had NEVER WON a second round series.

Well there's Gerard Gallant he had ... uh, never won a series in his career.

Those guys were in the finals not because they cajoled their players to put out an effort. They had rosters of players who wanted to win.
- hockeyal

Player buy in paramount. There isn't a coach worth a dam if his players don't play. Coaches who win Cups like Hitchcock, Laviolette, and Tortorella don't forget how to coach but they eventually get fired. It's a results oriented business. I don't believe that the Flyers have a roster that doesn't want to win. A lot of the players haven't learned how to win yet.

I'm not condoning moving Ghost. Just saying if you want show and awe, well, thats your ticket.
There was a link today...not sure if it was through Bill...but it brought up the Pronger years. Those teams had skill and nasty. I don't think it mattered who the coach was. But more important, they could play more ways than one. this team can't do that.
I dunno. Im rambling. just really disappointed
- nails

In the Pronger years, the team knew that Pronger was never going to take a shift off, and that if they did they could expect the captain in their face when the team got back to the room. They were held accountable. I mean, has there even been a players only meeting yet this season?

I wouldn't move G or Jake. I think one of the issues here is that the D believes all they hype about how great they are offensively. About how they carry the team offensively. So instead of focusing on being great D men, they are constantly thinking about the transition.
If you REALLY want to shake things up and send a message.....trade Ghost
- nails

Ummm, no. Absolutely not.

No to trading Ghost. He’s such an underrated player on this team.
- VladDrag

Again, not advocating that.