Daigle is more akin to my line of thinking on Gratton. Picking no talent schlubs is easy. Have to go 2nd level hahahaha
- KINGKENZO

The differences are:

A. Can't blame the player (Gratton) for taking the ridiculous amount of money Clarke gave him.

B. Unlike Daigle, Gratton actually wanted to be a hockey player

C. and also unlike Daigle, Gratton actually produced on the ice. He may not have produced to our expectations, but he did a hell of a lot more than Daigle.

Daigle is more akin to my line of thinking on Gratton. Picking no talent schlubs is easy. Have to go 2nd level hahahaha
- KINGKENZO

How bout Jan Hlavac? had 106 points in 146 games with NYR, we got him in the Lindros trade, he scored 10 points in 31 games before we unloaded him to Vancouver for Brashear.

Cause I'm bored, Flyers Mt. Puckmore for various categories:

TEAM EXECS:
Ed Snider, Keith Allen, Joe Scott, Bob Clarke
-the first 2 are gimmes, the team never gets off the ground without help from Joe Scott and say what you want about Clarke as a GM, he still built teams that went to the finals 3 times and, overall, were generally pretty successful

COACHES:
Fred Shero, Pat Quinn, Mike Keenan, Ken Hitchcock
-Shero and Keenan were easy. I always liked Quinn when he was head coach here and I think they pulled the plug on him way too early. The job he did in completely turning around the team from the mess they were in late 78-79 to the powerhouse they were in 79-80 was masterful. Hitch edged Lavi for the last spot, but it was close.

GOALIES:
Bernie Parent, Pelle Lindbergh, Ron Hextall, Pete Peeters
-the first 3 are obvious. I gave the last spot to Peeters over Cechmanek due to Peeters having better success in the post season and because Cechmanek was a douche.

DEFENSE:
Mark Howe, Eric Desjardins, Kimmo Timonen, Jimmy Watson
-Gave Watson the last spot because he's still the best homegrown Dman in team history. However, I can see both Ghost and Provorov passing him in the next few years. Bob Dailey, Barry Ashbee and Ed Van Impe all got consideration, as did Brad McCrimmon. If Pronger had played here a few more seasons, he would have easily been the 4th.

CENTER:
Bobby Clarke, Eric Lindros, Rick Macleish, Claude Giroux
-Macleish makes it because he, along with Danny Briere, were the 2 best clutch playoff performers I ever saw play for the Flyers and he was instrumental in both Cup runs. And yeah, I know Giroux played LW last year, but his overall body of work at center merits his earning the last spot

LEFT WING:
Bill Barber, Brian Propp, John Leclair, Simon Gagne
-The first 3 are obvious. Gagne edged out Ross Lonsberry and Scott Hartnell for the last spot.

RIGHT WING:
Reggie Leach, Tim Kerr, Rick Tocchet, Jake Voracek
-Kerr is a no brainer and Leach deserves to be on the list just for what he did in 75-76, 61 goals in the reg season followed by 19 in the playoffs, his combined total of 80 goals in a season is a Flyers record that will likely never be broken. Tocchet was the best pure power forward in team history so he makes the list. Voracek's work last year was just enough to put him on the statue. Also getting a lot of consideration were Gary Dornhoefer, Paul Holmgren and Mark Recchi.

FIGHTERS:
Dave Schultz, Behn Wilson, Dave Brown, Donald Brashear
-Schultz has to be on the list. Brown was one of the best punchers I've ever seen and Wilson was downright scary. Brashear narrowly edged Tocchet for the last spot.
- BiggE

Completely objective I know but in my opinion Recchi over Voracek is a no brainer and it's not close.

Taking in the circumstances, expectations, and the cost to get/sign him..... it does for me.
- KINGKENZO

Sorry but that doesn't make sense. He is not remotely close to being in the running for the 4 worst players in the teams history. He may have been disappointing compared to unreasonable expectations but he was still a solid player as a Flyer.

Not over looked. Shouldn't be there. His one full NHL season with the Flyers resulted in a 22 goal, 40 assist, 62 point season. Not sure how that qualifies as sucking.
- MJL

You conveniently left out his his 1G 7A in 26Game effort the following year that led Clarke trading him back to TB for Renberg

Completely objective I know but in my opinion Recchi over Voracek is a no brainer and it's not close.
- MJL

100% agree.

Sorry but that doesn't make sense. He is not remotely close to being in the running for the 4 worst players in the teams history. He may have been disappointing compared to unreasonable expectations but he was still a solid player as a Flyer.
- MJL

Hhahahahahaha....unreasonable expectations. He scored 30 the year before in Tampa.

You conveniently left out his his 1G 7A in 26Game effort the following year that led Clarke trading him back to TB for Renberg
- KINGKENZO

Yea, he underachieved, no one's arguing that. But in no way does that make him one of the 4 worst players in Flyers history

You conveniently left out his his 1G 7A in 26Game effort the following year that led Clarke trading him back to TB for Renberg
- KINGKENZO

No I didn't leave out anything. Any player is prone to a scoring slump for a variety of reasons. I know you're trying to spin this but that's futile. Naming Gratton as one of the worst players in franchise history is just plain absurd.

Hhahahahahaha....unreasonable expectations. He scored 30 the year before in Tampa.
- KINGKENZO

When a player puts up a 22 goal 40 assist season and is labeled a disappointment, that makes the expectations unreasonable.

No I didn't leave out anything. Any player is prone to a scoring slump for a variety of reasons. I know you're trying to spin this but that's futile. Naming Gratton as one of the worst players in franchise history is just plain absurd.
- MJL

Ok, Chuck McGill. You want to haggle over verbiage of "worst, underachieving, sucked". Im not categorizing by genre. He obviously has more skill than any of the players mentioned. Im not saying he's one 4 worst. He could be top4 or top 400, just making a nomination.

If i said he's one top 4 disappointing or underachieving players, it would be spot on.

Ok, Chuck McGill. You want to haggle over verbiage of "worst, underachieving, sucked". Im not categorizing by genre. He obviously has more skill than any of the players mentioned. Im not saying he's one 4 worst. He could be top4 or top 400, just making a nomination.

If i said he's one top 4 disappointing or underachieving players, it would be spot on.
- KINGKENZO

LOL. What do you think Mt Suckmore is in reference too? Mt. Rushmore perhaps? What does Mt. Rushmore represent? The entire premise was nominating players for the 4 worst players in Flyers franchise history.

MJL asked a solid question of everyone’s Opinion in the last thread. Was it a suck list or players you dislike? Now, I watched the Flyers when Billy Tibbit was a Flyer. Clearly not the most talented or classy of players but did he suck or were most of you speaking of his off the ice indefensible stuff?

My list of Chris Vandevelde, Brandon Manning, Randy Jones, Kyle Calder and Freddy Myer comes from player we kept pushing to play, giving the minutes, sucked and went on to nothing because they were clearly not good...Now that I see what I wrote, maybe Tibbit belongs here...

When a player puts up a 22 goal 40 assist season and is labeled a disappointment, that makes the expectations unreasonable.
- MJL

You are hilarious. You of all people, argue against analytics and construct your opinion on the total context of how a player performs is using stats to support your argument.

You are hilarious. You of all people, argue against analytics and construct your opinion on the total context of how a player performs is using stats to support your argument.
- KINGKENZO

Nice strawman there!


You lost the battle so pick another fight.

My argument is that not only did Gratton not suck but he also is not remotely close to being one of the 4 worst players in franchise history. I'm on solid ground there.

MJL asked a solid question of everyone’s Opinion in the last thread. Was it a suck list or players you dislike? Now, I watched the Flyers when Billy Tibbit was a Flyer. Clearly not the most talented or classy of players but did he suck or were most of you speaking of his off the ice indefensible stuff?

My list of Chris Vandevelde, Brandon Manning, Randy Jones, Kyle Calder and Freddy Myer comes from player we kept pushing to play, giving the minutes, sucked and went on to nothing because they were clearly not good...Now that I see what I wrote, maybe Tibbit belongs here...
- SuperSchennBros

I didn't really put an qualifications on it. It was just kind of players that when you watched, you thought, how did this guy get a full time gig in the NHL?

Nice strawman there!


You lost the battle so pick another fight.
- MJL

There is no battle to win or lose. Its subjective. Define the parameters of the "fight" and we can go accordingly

Completely objective I know but in my opinion Recchi over Voracek is a no brainer and it's not close.
- MJL

Fair enough, I just never really liked the guy. I always felt he was one of the ringleaders in the whole players vs Bill Barber mess and I lost a lot of respect for him after that at. But yeah, based purely on his performance on the ice, I'd rate him over Jake.

Nice strawman there!


You lost the battle so pick another fight.

My argument is that not only did Gratton not suck but he also is not remotely close to being one of the 4 worst players in franchise history. I'm on solid ground there.
- MJL

ok.....Chris Gratton may have been one of the top 4 most disappointing Flyers

I win

If the Flyers prospect with the highest upside for position is Hart, Pronman clearly ranks Hart lower than most analysts so it is not surprising that based on his value system, the Flyers dropped. I don’t know if he just doesn’t value goaltending as much or if he requires longer to see them (AHL) because they typically take more time to develop.
- NC Flyers Fan

Generally when it comes to prospect rankings, goalies are not valued as much because their role at the NHL level are so difficult to project. Some goalies look amazing, then get to the NHL and simply can't hack it.

Really like to see Sandstrom step up this year. Him and Hart developed as Flyers would be a nice change! I like what Hextall is doing at the draft table.

Mount Suckmore sounds like a title for a porn. Just saying.

Mount Suckmore sounds like a title for a porn. Just saying.
- flyer_nutter

LOL

RE: Chris Gratton

The signing, itself, was such an ill-conceived measure by Clarke. Gratton was never the monster player everyone had hoped for.

I'd say he was definitely on a Mt. Rushmore of most disappointing player acquisitions. I wouldn't go so far as to say he sucked, though.

Except when they tried to move him to wing. Then, yeah, he kinda sucked.

There is no battle to win or lose. Its subjective. Define the parameters of the "fight" and we can go accordingly
- KINGKENZO

Actually the parameters were already set. You tried to erroneously turn the debate towards my stance on analytics rather than if Gratton actually sucked or not.