tbh I can't understand why people wouldn't want Karlsson

I think its just because UG wants Karlsson

tbh I can't understand why people wouldn't want Karlsson

I think its just because UG wants Karlsson
- twiztedmike

That's at least 50% of it.

50% - UG Hate
20% - Ottawa Hate
20% - Love of Nylander
10% - Legitimate concern over health and future cap space

tbh I can't understand why people wouldn't want Karlsson

I think its just because UG wants Karlsson
- twiztedmike

1. It makes the cap situation tighter - probably worth it anyways, but people worry

2. We'd have to give up significant assets for Ottawa to trade him to us and he's already on record having said he only wants to sign an extension in Tampa, so he might bolt to there after one year even if we offered him a good deal - This actually does worry me

3. People are worried about him losing a step after his foot surgery - I personally think is a whole lot of nothing. If he'd played the full season, even on that poopty team he put up a pace for 72 points in 82 games (actual was 62 in 71).

4. UG wants it - Hmm, yeah screw that guy!

1. It makes the cap situation tighter - probably worth it anyways, but people worry
- Thecakeisalie

Not really. If Nylander and Gardiner sign for 6.5 million each, it's still more than Karlsson + ELC (Dermott / Kapanen). The Leafs have to spend money, it's just a matter of where and on what position. The forwards are strong enough as it is, the money should be shifted and spent on defense.

2. We'd have to give up significant assets for Ottawa to trade him to us and he's already on record having said he only wants to sign an extension in Tampa, so he might bolt to there after one year even if we offered him a good deal - This actually does worry me

No trade would be made unless he agrees to an extension. Karlsson for 1 year doesn't make sense and isn't worth it. The assets being given up are quality but you have to give up quality to get it back.

3. People are worried about him losing a step after his foot surgery - I personally think is a whole lot of nothing. If he'd played the full season, even on that poopty team he put up a pace for 72 points in 82 games (actual was 62 in 71).

I think he proved last year, despite everything he had to deal with, he can play at a very high level again. But again, if the doctors don't give it the green light, it's not worth it. But if they do, it should be a no brainer.

4. UG wants it - Hmm, yeah screw that guy!

Exactly.

Not really. If Nylander and Gardiner sign for 6.5 million each, it's still more than Karlsson + ELC (Dermott / Kapanen). The Leafs have to spend money, it's just a matter of where and on what position. The forwards are strong enough as it is, the money should be shifted and spent on defense.



No trade would be made unless he agrees to an extension. Karlsson for 1 year doesn't make sense and isn't worth it. The assets being given up are quality but you have to give up quality to get it back.



I think he proved last year, despite everything he had to deal with, he can play at a very high level again. But again, if the doctors don't give it the green light, it's not worth it. But if they do, it should be a no brainer.



Exactly.
- Unholy_Goalie

You probably saw from my add-ons to each that I actually agree with you. If they got an agreement from EK to an extension and the numbers were workable, I'd be happy with the move.
Even better if we didn't need to give up Willy, but he'd definitely get Ottawa listening.

You probably saw from my add-ons to each that I actually agree with you. If they got an agreement from EK to an extension and the numbers were workable, I'd be happy with the move.
Even better if we didn't need to give up Willy, but he'd definitely get Ottawa listening.
- Thecakeisalie

I saw them, I was just adding to the comments.

The reports that have come out talked about how he wants the same deal as Tavares with the majority of the money being up front and as signing bonuses. Money for the Leafs should never be an issue or an excuse.

In an ideal world, sure, you hope Ottawa is stupid and trades Karlsson to the Leafs for something like Gardiner, Brown, Liljegren or Sandin, 1st round pick etc. then Marleau retires and Nylander signs for 6.5 AAV or less. But I don't see that being the best offer for Karlsson nor do I see Marleau retiring and Nylander taking 6.5 AAV. But those odds are long.

tbh I can't understand why people wouldn't want Karlsson

I think its just because UG wants Karlsson
- twiztedmike

I dunno about everybody, but personally I think the cost would be too high. But who knows, it would probably still be worth it...

I dunno about everybody, but personally I think the cost would be too high. But who knows, it would probably still be worth it...
- 13sundin13

The cost would be high (Nylander, Gardiner and a 1st for example to outbid the likes of Tampa Bay and Dallas or any other bidders) but nowhere near as high if the situation wasn't as (frank)ed up as it is. A player like Doughty for example, would cost you twice the price. Not just because he's better but also because both the Kings and Doughty are happy together so to pry them apart comes at a higher price. Karlsson is basically on sale right now and I say strike while the iron is hot.

Look at what Pronger cost Anaheim when he wanted out of Edmonton. A steal for Anaheim by comparison to what each side got accomplished.

And before that, Pronger got traded from St. Louis because they were broke (similar situation as Ottawa) and look at what they got from Edmonton. Peanuts.

I still can't believe we have Matthews and Tavares
- Zezel

when will you finally believe that we have 2 human beings playing hockey in toronto?

They'd be doing themselves a huge disservice by not inviting a few guys on PTOs for the 4C. Gauthier sucks, Jooris isn't much better and Lindholm has never played in North America. They have the cap space to get a good 4C and bottom pairing D on 1 year deals. And a back-up goalie too. A legit one with proven NHL experience who can play 25-30 games.
- Unholy_Goalie

whats wrong with mclweenie?

The cost would be high (Nylander, Gardiner and a 1st for example to outbid the likes of Tampa Bay and Dallas or any other bidders) but nowhere near as high if the situation wasn't as (frank)ed up as it is. A player like Doughty for example, would cost you twice the price. Not just because he's better but also because both the Kings and Doughty are happy together so to pry them apart comes at a higher price. Karlsson is basically on sale right now and I say strike while the iron is hot.

Look at what Pronger cost Anaheim when he wanted out of Edmonton. A steal for Anaheim by comparison to what each side got accomplished.
- Unholy_Goalie

Nylander Gardiner 1st isn't close to what Dorion would be asking, he's not gonna lower his price, especially for the Leafs. They're going for a significant piece back and Nylander isn't going to cut it, Gardiner is pretty meaningless in a deal like this with his age and free agent status and the low first is basically a crap shoot. Marner, 1st, + would be the asking price. There's no way Melnyk and Dorion are giving Karlsson to the Leafs for anything less IMO so it's just not worth it.

We've discussed it before, I think we'd all do the Nylander/Gardiner/Low 1st for Karlsson in a heartbeat so that's probably a sign it's not a deal the Sens would take.

whats wrong with mclweenie?
- The Deal Man

Over-rated, old, had a career year, unlikely to play that well again and he didn't play 25-30 games which they need the back-up to do to keep the work load low on Andersen who faced too many shots last year.

Over-rated, old, had a career year, unlikely to play that well again and he didn't play 25-30 games which they need the back-up to do to keep the work load low on Andersen who faced too many shots last year.
- Unholy_Goalie

pickard and sparks?

Nylander Gardiner 1st isn't close to what Dorion would be asking, he's not gonna lower his price, especially for the Leafs. They're going for a significant piece back and Nylander isn't going to cut it, Gardiner is pretty meaningless in a deal like this with his age and free agent status and the low first is basically a crap shoot. Marner, 1st, + would be the asking price. There's no way Melnyk and Dorion are giving Karlsson to the Leafs for anything less IMO so it's just not worth it.

We've discussed it before, I think we'd all do the Nylander/Gardiner/Low 1st for Karlsson in a heartbeat so that's probably a sign it's not a deal the Sens would take.
- 13sundin13

It doesn't matter what he asks for, it's what the other teams offer. Dorion is (frank)ed. He has zero leverage.

Let's lay this out.

Ottawa has no cash, so the extension isn't happening because they can't give him the up front signing bonus he wants.

Then there's the fact that he hates the owner and to a lesser extent the management team that allowed the bullpoop that happened with Hoffman.

And usually, if a player was unhappy, you could overpay him and shut him up that way. But, as earlier mentioned, no cash in Ottawa.

They're also (frank)ed because they don't have their 1st round pick which means they can't tank next year either and they need a decent return to make sure they don't hand Colorado 1st overall which means they need some roster players who can make an impact right now. For example, Gardiner on defense helps replace Karlsson's loss a little bit and can be re-signed for cheaper without the massive up front signing bonuses.

Then there are the teams offering nothing but picks and prospects, like Tampa Bay is most likely doing. If Tampa Bay offered them any roster players worth having, they would have already made the deal because it would have cleared the salary to make space for Karlsson. So right away, something like Nylander and Gardiner is going to be more immediately helpful than whatever Tampa Bay is offering.

Then there are only a select few teams that can give Karlsson the up front money he wants (15-16 million dollar signing bonus that even Tampa Bay might not be able to give him that the Leafs could) so that limits the teams Ottawa can deal with even further because if Karlsson won't re-sign with a team, that team won't give up assets to acquire him.

The first team to offer Ottawa a decent package that includes a player who can develop into a future 1st liner, and a couple of good roster players that can keep them out of the draft lottery who can also agree to an extension with Karlsson is who they're going to deal with.

The price will be high but nowhere near where you think it will be. It's going to be lower than what he's actually worth and it's because Ottawa is (frank)ed into a corner.

pickard and sparks?
- The Deal Man

Sparks is unproven in the NHL and Pickard wasn't that impressive in the NHL either. They'd be better off with Lehtonen as far as a proven NHL goalie goes. And that's not saying very much.

It doesn't matter what he asks for, it's what the other teams offer. Dorion is (frank)ed. He has zero leverage.

Let's lay this out.

Ottawa has no cash, so the extension isn't happening because they can't give him the up front signing bonus he wants.

Then there's the fact that he hates the owner and to a lesser extent the management team that allowed the bullpoop that happened with Hoffman.

And usually, if a player was unhappy, you could overpay him and shut him up that way. But, as earlier mentioned, no cash in Ottawa.

They're also (frank)ed because they don't have their 1st round pick which means they can't tank next year either and they need a decent return to make sure they don't hand Colorado 1st overall which means they need some roster players who can make an impact right now. For example, Gardiner on defense helps replace Karlsson's loss a little bit and can be re-signed for cheaper without the massive up front signing bonuses.

Then there are the teams offering nothing but picks and prospects, like Tampa Bay is most likely doing. If Tampa Bay offered them any roster players worth having, they would have already made the deal because it would have cleared the salary to make space for Karlsson. So right away, something like Nylander and Gardiner is going to be more immediately helpful than whatever Tampa Bay is offering.

Then there are only a select few teams that can give Karlsson the up front money he wants (15-16 million dollar signing bonus that even Tampa Bay might not be able to give him that the Leafs could) so that limits the teams Ottawa can deal with even further because if Karlsson won't re-sign with a team, that team won't give up assets to acquire him.

The first team to offer Ottawa a decent package that includes a player who can develop into a future 1st liner, and a couple of good roster players that can keep them out of the draft lottery who can also agree to an extension with Karlsson is who they're going to deal with.

The price will be high but nowhere near where you think it will be. It's going to be lower than what he's actually worth and it's because Ottawa is (frank)ed into a corner.
- Unholy_Goalie

Not denying any of that. At least we can agree that Nylander, Gardiner and a low 1st is not worth what Karlsson is actually worth value wise. To me, that means Ottawa would be giving the Leafs a deal, and all things being equal, the Leafs are the last team they would give a deal to. Even if it was was slightly better than another team. Plus, if the Leafs put that on the table I'm sure the Sens would shop that around to every team that could afford him to beat it, even by a draft pick, and that would be that.

Sure, it makes no sense, but Dorion has clearly stated on a number of occasions he doesn't like to trade within the div. and I'm sure the Leafs are the last team he would trade to. Im not saying what he should or shouldn't do, I'm talking about what's realistic.

Maybe Marner isn't the be all end all but it definitely would take more than Nylander, Gardiner and their first to get it done. All that being said, as a leafs fan I hope you're right and if that deal like the one you describe is there, I'm 100% confident Dubas and Co. would be able to get it done. If they miss out on Karlsson it won't be from lack of effort or incompetence.

Not denying any of that. At least we can agree that Nylander, Gardiner and a low 1st is not worth what Karlsson is actually worth value wise. To me, that means Ottawa would be giving the Leafs a deal, and all things being equal, the Leafs are the last team they would give a deal to. Even if it was was slightly better than another team. Plus, if the Leafs put that on the table I'm sure the Sens would shop that around to every team that could afford him to beat it, even by a draft pick, and that would be that.
- 13sundin13

Yes, it can agreed upon that it's lower than what he's actually worth but not by much. Remember, Nylander is a very good young player and Gardiner can be an offensive defenseman who can replace some of the lost offense. A lot of Leafs fans have argued it's an overpayment. It's not that much lower than what can be expected as the two main, core pieces. But it's lower than the maximum value and it's lower because Ottawa is in a difficult situation.

Who can top that offer? Tampa Bay can't really top that offer and that's exactly why the Leafs would be smart to swoop in at this time. Tampa Bay is looking to add Karlsson without losing good roster players. If they were willing to move a Tyler Johnson, the deal would have already been made before his NTC kicked in July 1st. Tampa Bay is trying to low ball Ottawa and so is everyone else. Dallas doesn't want to give up their top prospect who isn't even as good as Nylander is right now. Nobody else out there who has been reported in play can top that offer.

I say, low ball Ottawa but not as much as every one else. Out bid the rest but still get Karlsson for less.

Sure, it makes no sense, but Dorion has clearly stated on a number of occasions he doesn't like to trade within the div. and I'm sure the Leafs are the last team he would trade to. Im not saying what he should or shouldn't do, I'm talking about what's realistic.

It is realistic if the Leafs give him the best offer. Remember, he can't tank, he needs good players to avoid coming dead last next year. Giving him the best offer lessens the blow of who the offer comes from.

I think the Hoffman trade was different because they didn't want Hoffman in the division because it means 6 times a year (or more) Hoffman and Karlsson would play each other and their wives would be in the same building. I think that was their attempt to keep Karlsson happy to get him to re-sign. At this point, the fact that they are willing to trade Karlsson to Tampa Bay (and he was willing to re-sign there) is showing they don't care if Karlsson goes within the division anymore.

Maybe Marner isn't the be all end all but it definitely would take more than Nylander, Gardiner and their first to get it done. All that being said, as a leafs fan I hope you're right and if that deal like the one you describe is there, I'm 100% confident Dubas and Co. would be able to get it done. If they miss out on Karlsson it won't be from lack of effort or incompetence.

Marner is better than Nylander and that's why Nylander is the one that gets traded. That being said, Nylander is good enough to be a significant piece worthy of consideration by Ottawa.

I don't think Dubas is in on Karlsson and I think it's unfortunate and a missed opportunity. I think if he was in on Karlsson, somebody would have reported it by now, even just a rumor. Unless he's waiting for the price to drop even lower but like I said before, at some point, a guy like Nylander would have to get traded anyway because he's going to want to get paid too and Karlsson will be expensive. The only way it would work is if Marleau prompty retired July 2nd, 2019 and Nylander agreed to an extension worth 6.5 AAV this year and Karlsson was acquired for nothing but picks and prospects. But those three planets aligning are slim to none.

Can you sign say a defenseman to a 4 year deal paying him 12 million the first year then 2 million the next 3 years ? Would be 18 mill over 4 years averages out to 4.50 a season but make it real top heavy to match the leafs cap situation this year and going forward ? What I mean is are you able to charge it to the cap as 14,2,2,2? Or does it have to be 4.5 per

Yes, it can agreed upon that it's lower than what he's actually worth but not by much. Remember, Nylander is a very good young player and Gardiner can be an offensive defenseman who can replace some of the lost offense. A lot of Leafs fans have argued it's an overpayment. It's not that much lower than what can be expected as the two main, core pieces. But it's lower than the maximum value and it's lower because Ottawa is in a difficult situation.

Who can top that offer? Tampa Bay can't really top that offer and that's exactly why the Leafs would be smart to swoop in at this time. Tampa Bay is looking to add Karlsson without losing good roster players. If they were willing to move a Tyler Johnson, the deal would have already been made before his NTC kicked in July 1st. Tampa Bay is trying to low ball Ottawa and so is everyone else. Dallas doesn't want to give up their top prospect who isn't even as good as Nylander is right now. Nobody else out there who has been reported in play can top that offer.

I say, low ball Ottawa but not as much as every one else. Out bid the rest but still get Karlsson for less.



It is realistic if the Leafs give him the best offer. Remember, he can't tank, he needs good players to avoid coming dead last next year. Giving him the best offer lessens the blow of who the offer comes from.

I think the Hoffman trade was different because they didn't want Hoffman in the division because it means 6 times a year (or more) Hoffman and Karlsson would play each other and their wives would be in the same building. I think that was their attempt to keep Karlsson happy to get him to re-sign. At this point, the fact that they are willing to trade Karlsson to Tampa Bay (and he was willing to re-sign there) is showing they don't care if Karlsson goes within the division anymore.



Marner is better than Nylander and that's why Nylander is the one that gets traded. That being said, Nylander is good enough to be a significant piece worthy of consideration by Ottawa.

I don't think Dubas is in on Karlsson and I think it's unfortunate and a missed opportunity. I think if he was in on Karlsson, somebody would have reported it by now, even just a rumor. Unless he's waiting for the price to drop even lower but like I said before, at some point, a guy like Nylander would have to get traded anyway because he's going to want to get paid too and Karlsson will be expensive. The only way it would work is if Marleau prompty retired July 2nd, 2019 and Nylander agreed to an extension worth 6.5 AAV this year and Karlsson was acquired for nothing but picks and prospects. But those three planets aligning are slim to none.
- Unholy_Goalie

Again, I dont think Gardiner is as valuable a piece to be traded as you think. He's a UFA after this season and no offense to Sens fans, but who is going to sign long term in their prime with that team/owner? With their strict budget? He's basically a tiny part of the deal since he would most likely test the UFA waters and get paid. The first rounder is a total gamble, the Leafs with Karlsson and Tavares probably aren't going to go below 25th. All in all it's Nylander and two very big unknowns for Karlsson. Not good enough, the Sens can shop that deal around and get a better return quite easily. It doesn't have to be a two team deal, another team can get involved, Dorion has a high price and it'll be a while before it comes down.

I'm 99% sure that Dubas and his staff has inquired about Karlsson and know the price. I'm sure every GM in the league has done so, it's their job. There are so many possibilities as to why deals dont get done or why teams aren't in on players. Maybe Dorion gave them a hard no. Maybe Karlsson doesn't want to play for the Leafs. Maybe Dubas thinks the price (which none of us know) is too high. I think it would be safe to say that if Dorion had demanded Nylander, Gardiner and a 1st to Dubas or something to that effect, Karlsson would be a leaf right now.

I dont think Nylander has to be traded, there are a number of moves they could make before that has to happen. Not to mention the salary cap going up etc. If he's worth the money they'll find a way.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I'm sure I'm not going to be changing your mind anytime soon, and vice versa. Either way its a nice thought Karlsson and Tavares would be the best offseason in Leafs history...

- Zezel

X2

Can you sign say a defenseman to a 4 year deal paying him 12 million the first year then 2 million the next 3 years ? Would be 18 mill over 4 years averages out to 4.50 a season but make it real top heavy to match the leafs cap situation this year and going forward ? What I mean is are you able to charge it to the cap as 14,2,2,2? Or does it have to be 4.5 per
- Marcelus

No, the cap has to be the average throughout. So it has to be 4.5

Can you sign say a defenseman to a 4 year deal paying him 12 million the first year then 2 million the next 3 years ? Would be 18 mill over 4 years averages out to 4.50 a season but make it real top heavy to match the leafs cap situation this year and going forward ? What I mean is are you able to charge it to the cap as 14,2,2,2? Or does it have to be 4.5 per
- Marcelus

ALL Cap hits are averaged out per year. In your example, the Leaf Cap hit would still be 4.5 million a year, regardless of how the payments are structured.

(and actually, your example equates to 20 million, or 5 million per year on the CAP.....just to be accurate.)

- Zezel