So, really, there's little difference between Andrei Vasilveskiy and Antti Niemi?

I don't get this. Why are goalies, possibly the most important part of a team, not considered to be part of the team?
- jmatchett383

Can you explain Niemi's .929 save percentage in Montreal? Pure luck, I don't think so. Coaching or complete reformation, not likely. Team defense is the only thing I can think of.

I'm not going to go so far as to say their isn't any differences between NHL goalies. I am saying you put an NHL goalie on any team and his numbers will rise and fall because of team defense and philosophy (style).

Hockey is the ultimate team sport. No one position is drastically more important than another.

What, a person was drinking beers while they were injured???

SCANDAL!!!
- jmatchett383

Hey if he is a hardcore guy training with Roberts he shouldn't be doing that.

I don't care though. He's just a person.

Can you explain Niemi's .929 save percentage in Montreal? Pure luck, I don't think so. Coaching or complete reformation, not likely. Team defense is the only thing I can think of.

I'm not going to go so far as to say their isn't any differences between NHL goalies. I am saying you put an NHL goalie on any team and his numbers will rise and fall because of team defense and philosophy (style).

Hockey is the ultimate team sport. No one position is drastically more important than another.
- Thunderbolt

Nice try but chalk that one up to a 19 game sample size.

Can you explain Niemi's .929 save percentage in Montreal? Pure luck, I don't think so. Coaching or complete reformation, not likely. Team defense is the only thing I can think of.

I'm not going to go so far as to say their isn't any differences between NHL goalies. I am saying you put an NHL goalie on any team and his numbers will rise and fall because of team defense and philosophy (style).

Hockey is the ultimate team sport. No one position is drastically more important than another.
- Thunderbolt

Well yes, a great goalie won't propel a bottom-dweller to Cup contender. However, a great goalie can turn a decent tea into a Cup contender (see: Vegas), and a bad goalie can turn a good team into a poor team (see: Pittsburgh with Niemi). Also, an elite goalie doesn't guarantee a Stanley Cup (see: Lundqvist). So yes, in general, a goalie's performance and team defense go hand-in-hand. But to win a Stanley Cup, you need a goalie who's going to steal you a handful of games when your skaters are outplayed.

Also, I would argue that the goalie position is of critical importance, at least in the case of poor goaltending. If your team is controlling play but your goalie can't stop a beach ball, or if your goalie is prone to giving up back-breaking goals at key times, it's incredibly hard for the skaters to keep up their intensity. Conversely, if your goalie is under siege all game but is making spectacular save after save, that can be a rallying cry for the rest of their team to help their goalie out. So yes, I think that the goalie has a larger effect on the game outcome than any other individual player.

Hey if he is a hardcore guy training with Roberts he shouldn't be doing that.

I don't care though. He's just a person.
- Feds91Stammer

He was doing hardcore training with a fitness guru with a busted leg??? What is he, Super Man?

He was doing hardcore training with a fitness guru with a busted leg??? What is he, Super Man?
- jmatchett383

LMAO no.

LMAO no.
- Feds91Stammer

I am very confused. He was injured with a bad leg, in the offseason, having a few beers with a friend, and this somehow makes him a bad player for not doing 1200 pound leg presses?

I am very confused. He was injured with a bad leg, in the offseason, having a few beers with a friend, and this somehow makes him a bad player for not doing 1200 pound leg presses?
- jmatchett383

It wasn't the off-season. Apologies for the confusion.

Nice try but chalk that one up to a 19 game sample size.
- Feds91Stammer

Antii Niemi (10 years) and Marc Andre Fluery (14 years) have almost identical career stats. Can we determine who is the better goalie by that sample size? Or can we conclusively say they equal?

My original point stands, goalie stats and +/- are team stats. I will also add they are worthless in a vacuum. For example Bobby Orr will make anybodies +/- better. Same with Scott Stevens, Stevens will also make goalies better, though I don't know how much better he made Broduer.

It wasn't the off-season. Apologies for the confusion.
- Feds91Stammer

Sorry, you said "end of the season," which I took as after the season (or at least TB's season) was over.

But I'm still confused. if Roberts only does off-season workouts, then what does Stamkos being injured and having beers during the season have to do with it?

I'm really not seeing what's so bad about a guy having a few beers with a friend while he's on the shelf.

Well yes, a great goalie won't propel a bottom-dweller to Cup contender. However, a great goalie can turn a decent tea into a Cup contender (see: Vegas), and a bad goalie can turn a good team into a poor team (see: Pittsburgh with Niemi). Also, an elite goalie doesn't guarantee a Stanley Cup (see: Lundqvist). So yes, in general, a goalie's performance and team defense go hand-in-hand. But to win a Stanley Cup, you need a goalie who's going to steal you a handful of games when your skaters are outplayed.

Also, I would argue that the goalie position is of critical importance, at least in the case of poor goaltending. If your team is controlling play but your goalie can't stop a beach ball, or if your goalie is prone to giving up back-breaking goals at key times, it's incredibly hard for the skaters to keep up their intensity. Conversely, if your goalie is under siege all game but is making spectacular save after save, that can be a rallying cry for the rest of their team to help their goalie out. So yes, I think that the goalie has a larger effect on the game outcome than any other individual player.
- jmatchett383

I equate goaltending with pitching in baseball. The old saying good pitching will beat good hitting. The same with 'tending, goalies can carry a team so far. Or like you said, can drag a team down.

Both hockey and baseball are defensive games. The rules are designed that way. ( The way either game is officiated is whole new can of worms.) Pitchers and goalies are the backbone of that side of the game. So yes the goalie is the most important position. Frank Tanana said if I give up one run I deserve a tie. In that vein neither position is worth much on the offensive side of the game.

I equate goaltending with pitching in baseball. The old saying good pitching will beat good hitting. The same with 'tending, goalies can carry a team so far. Or like you said, can drag a team down.

Both hockey and baseball are defensive games. The rules are designed that way. ( The way either game is officiated is whole new can of worms.) Pitchers and goalies are the backbone of that side of the game. So yes the goalie is the most important position. Frank Tanana said if I give up one run I deserve a tie. In that vein neither position is worth much on the offensive side of the game.
- Thunderbolt

Well yes, pitchers are goalies aren't going to contribute much offensively (with exceptions). But at the same time, in football, they say that defense wins championships, yet the QB is the player you build your team around. So there's that side, too.

Obviously, a great goalie can't guaranatee a win, but he can give you a great chance to win. Similarly, a bad goalie can great lessen your chance to win. Both of them can happen independently of the team in front of them, yet the two do go hand-in-hand to an extent.

Sorry, you said "end of the season," which I took as after the season (or at least TB's season) was over.

But I'm still confused. if Roberts only does off-season workouts, then what does Stamkos being injured and having beers during the season have to do with it?

I'm really not seeing what's so bad about a guy having a few beers with a friend while he's on the shelf.
- jmatchett383

Don't worry about it. Go back to being offended on the OTT blog.

Is there any source that says penguins are actually interested? Of course teams are going to try and make offers. No reason not too. I’d listen to them. If it was some idioticly ridiculous offer that left the Pens better then do it. Just because teams are offering does t mean the pens are shopping. I get offers for my 98 f 150 that’s in really good shape all the time, I don’t want to sell it but if someone offered me 10000 I’d have too

Don't worry about it. Go back to being offended on the OTT blog.
- Feds91Stammer

Meh, I was okay until AF came in waving his balls around. He and Tanner just irk the (frank) out of me. Tanner's just an idiot who trolls his own blogs, and French just acts high and mighty as (frank)...at least he understands hockey though, unlike Tanner.

Is there any source that says penguins are actually interested? Of course teams are going to try and make offers. No reason not too. I’d listen to them. If it was some idioticly ridiculous offer that left the Pens better then do it. Just because teams are offering does t mean the pens are shopping. I get offers for my 98 f 150 that’s in really good shape all the time, I don’t want to sell it but if someone offered me 10000 I’d have too
- Grinder47

This.

I'm sure there are 30 GMs than would love to add Connor McDavid, but that doesn't mean that Edmonton is actively looking to move him.

Well yes, a great goalie won't propel a bottom-dweller to Cup contender. However, a great goalie can turn a decent tea into a Cup contender (see: Vegas), and a bad goalie can turn a good team into a poor team (see: Pittsburgh with Niemi). Also, an elite goalie doesn't guarantee a Stanley Cup (see: Lundqvist). So yes, in general, a goalie's performance and team defense go hand-in-hand. But to win a Stanley Cup, you need a goalie who's going to steal you a handful of games when your skaters are outplayed.

Also, I would argue that the goalie position is of critical importance, at least in the case of poor goaltending. If your team is controlling play but your goalie can't stop a beach ball, or if your goalie is prone to giving up back-breaking goals at key times, it's incredibly hard for the skaters to keep up their intensity. Conversely, if your goalie is under siege all game but is making spectacular save after save, that can be a rallying cry for the rest of their team to help their goalie out. So yes, I think that the goalie has a larger effect on the game outcome than any other individual player.
- jmatchett383

Martin Brodeur is probably the best argument although he was an exception talent. The Devils had some good players, but they likely struggle to even be a playoff team most years with average goaltending let alone win multiple Cups.

I feel like elite goaltending has become undervalued just because the best goalies of late, Lundqvist and Price, haven't won. Never mind they haven't had the star skaters Chicago, Pittsburgh, and LA have.

Other news. Arizona offers OEL 8 years 66 million. 8.25 cap hit

The only way I move Kessel is if I get a good player, a good prospect, and a first in 2020 when they have a shot at getting Lafreniere. To Calgary for Brodie, Anderson and a first I would have to think about. The fact is the Pens have too many wingers and they have to try and get something for them this summer. Sprong is ready and Blueger is as good a bottom 6 forward prospect as you can get. The top 5 d is set but the 6-7 guys are trash. Getting 2 good dmen and a shot at Lafreniere is worth it.

They could also keep drafting guys like Bennett, Pouliot, and Morrow.

Chances are if they traded away less picks some would have become pretty good players while others would be bust but none if them would have helped them win those 2 Cups or changed them losing this year.
- Tojo.

But that's just luck the players didn't turn out to be great.

Roberts is a cool dude. Met him at CAR training camp when I was younger.

Also I don't care what Stamkos says. He is a mental midget. I have also seen him out drinking with Ryan Malone at the end of the 2016-17 season when he was out with his knee injury.
- Feds91Stammer

Got a link for that or are we to read your mind & understand that's just your opinion. Just to be clear.

In this analytical world where a lot of people are trying to analyse events with numbers, I find it contradicting to think these same people believe so much in luck.

If luck is characterised by an event that occurs due to an irregular activity then ok. But irregular activities happen due to physics not imaginary forces of good or bad.

Ex: If Geno shoots & hits the post with basically an open net.

This happens & happened recently. Some will say how lucky the goalie was or unlucky Geno was. If Geno was to have that shot 10 times he would 'probably' score 8 or 9 times. But there cannot be a time in a game where he can replicate the exact conditions of his missed attempts so no shot is the same they are all different. Now in his shots that missed that may be considered 'unlucky', what was the environment like? Was there a defender he thought coming down to block so he rushed his shot - that's nothing to do with luck. Was the puck in the best position was his swing & timing right - again nothing to do with luck.


In regards to a goalie. Was Holtby lucky last game he saved Tuch? Was Tuch unlucky? No. Tuch played his shot & Holtby did what goalies do & stopped the puck - no luck involved.

Unlike a lot of hockey 'analytical' data, I'm sure science can explain what happens in a hockey game. It's not luck.

Roberts is a cool dude. Met him at CAR training camp when I was younger.

Also I don't care what Stamkos says. He is a mental midget. I have also seen him out drinking with Ryan Malone at the end of the 2016-17 season when he was out with his knee injury.
- Feds91Stammer

So a grown ass man was out drinking some beers with a friend? Are you actually 15? I’ve always thought you were like 17 so I never really wanted to call you out.

Martin Brodeur is probably the best argument although he was an exception talent. The Devils had some good players, but they likely struggle to even be a playoff team most years with average goaltending let alone win multiple Cups.

I feel like elite goaltending has become undervalued just because the best goalies of late, Lundqvist and Price, haven't won. Never mind they haven't had the star skaters Chicago, Pittsburgh, and LA have.
- Tojo.

There's merit in what you say especially with the dialogue of you can win with average goaltending (or something similar). So what does average goaltending actually mean? By the numbers? The goals that were scored - soft? The location from where the goals were scored?

Elite tenders can't score goals. So technically they can't win games. They can produce good results with weak defence maybe, & in saying that weak D can be a number of things.

It's funny but if a 'bad' Flower let's in 4 goals then his team need to score 5 goals. If he stonewalls & has a shutout then his team still needs to score to win. So as much as elite tending (& I still say goaltenders win you games/cups), the team still needs to score. It just appears that Lundqvist & Price have games over the season where they can't get in synch with their offence & produce wins. They still let in 'soft' goals as well which is probability more than talent related & will stop more shots considered elite tending.

From Gunners blog.

"The NHL is a talent driven league".

Where is Vegas on the list of teams with talent do people think?