The Penguins window to win is now and about the next 3 years. As good as Guentzel et. al are/will be, this team ultimately will go as far as Crosby and Malkin combined with goaltending will take them. That being said, trading Phil Kessel most likely makes them worse in the short-term, which matches their window. Trading him weakens your shot of winning another championship with this current group.

The only way I would trade Kessel would be by including more pieces to upgrade the position (i.e. Blake Wheeler) or to get a player with similar production who is younger (i.e. Pastrnak). Since neither of these scenarios are likely to play out, trading Kessel at this point seems like a bad idea.
- jmatchett383

Pretty much a perfect description of the situation.

I guess the Pens luck last year came from outstanding goal tending...they didnt get a lot of fluky goals, just a pile of very opportunistic timely ones, but they were heavily outplayed 5 on 5 in a lot of games outside the Sens series. So I guess winning games that the other team heavily out possesses the puck over you and out shots you constitutes luck.
- MattStrat

Sounds a lot like random variance to me.

I wouldn't do that trade anyways
- Feds91Stammer

If there was a realistic trade-world there with Kessel, I'd imagine we'd be looking at teams like STL, LAK, DAL, MIN, ANA, etc... The problem for me there is you're probably not going to get what you should for Kessel from those teams.

Don't get me wrong... There is a huge difference between the Pens 16-17 cup team and the Pens 17-18 cup team; the latter was not as good or dominant.

The phrase people are probably annoyed by at this point is, "finding ways to win." You don't just find ways to win by luck IMO.
- Rinosaur

I'm in agreement with you. I don't really believe in "luck" in general. I would say winning the lottery is lucky. The Penguins did thousands of things right last year to earn that championship. They won with clutch/depth scoring, shot blocking, experience, great decision making and most importantly, great goal tending. It just looked completely different than the previous season.

Interestingly, last years championship was the exact opposite of this years playoff performance.

Geez I hope Vegas are lucky in game 3, 4 & 5.

This is my biggest issue here...

Why is it when your star players step up people consider it the star players coming through and carrying the team, but good goaltending is luck? Why is there a distinction there?

Plus, as you said, they were opportunistic. It's not that easy to be opportunistic was we witnessed this year. Whatever anyone thinks of Murray, he kept the Pens in plenty of games this year, but they just couldn't score.

You can't win a game simply on goaltending. The rest of the team has to do their part.
- Rinosaur

In those same games where star players came up and carried the team, it is often said "we probably shouldn't have won that game, but Geno or Sid really took over the game." There isn't a distinction there. It's pretty much the same thing.

It's so easy to make statements like this when you have a Sullivan-level coach on your team than when you don't.

If it was that easy, every team in the league would have a good coach.
- Rinosaur

Disco won a cup, is he even coaching now?

There are some really good coaches in the league. I dont think Sully is one. Just average and can be replaced. Lemieux ran the team when Bowman was coach, he's considered one of the best ever. Sully just makes some pretty amateur moves.

The Penguins window to win is now and about the next 3 years. As good as Guentzel et. al are/will be, this team ultimately will go as far as Crosby and Malkin combined with goaltending will take them. That being said, trading Phil Kessel most likely makes them worse in the short-term, which matches their window. Trading him weakens your shot of winning another championship with this current group.

The only way I would trade Kessel would be by including more pieces to upgrade the position (i.e. Blake Wheeler) or to get a player with similar production who is younger (i.e. Pastrnak). Since neither of these scenarios are likely to play out, trading Kessel at this point seems like a bad idea.
- jmatchett383

How about a trade with the Flamers? That could potentially help both teams now.

Pretty much every team that wins a cup will need some luck along the way. It's never the first or second reason they win the cup though.

It's tough to weigh in on the Kessel situation when we don't have all of the facts. I will say though if Phil's production dropped off because he doesn't get along with the coach or doesn't like the coach, that would be quite disturbing. I would try to fix the relationship (if that indeed is the issue) prior to moving him, but perhaps they have already tried that.

In those same games where star players came up and carried the team, it is often said "we probably shouldn't have won that game, but Geno or Sid really took over the game." There isn't a distinction there. It's pretty much the same thing.
- j.boyd919

I guess we're hearing different sentiment.

If there was a realistic trade-world there with Kessel, I'd imagine we'd be looking at teams like STL, LAK, DAL, MIN, ANA, etc... The problem for me there is you're probably not going to get what you should for Kessel from those teams.
- Rinosaur

I think if the Pens do trade Kessel it would look like the Leafs trade, picks and top prospects. Then you in theory go sign a guy like JVR.

I didnt love the Kessel trade at the time, but other than this years playoffs he's been pretty good. Theres a lot of young talent that i just dont know about either.

How about a trade with the Flamers? That could potentially help both teams now.
- Aussiepenguin

To upgrade the RW position?????? I don't think I'd consider Frolik an upgrade.

Now, if you were able to get Gaudreau for a package centered on Kessel, then sure. But good luck with that.

To upgrade the RW position?????? I don't think I'd consider Frolik an upgrade.

Now, if you were able to get Gaudreau for a package centered on Kessel, then sure. But good luck with that.
- jmatchett383

Thinking more a Dman from them then see if a ufa can be signed to fill the hole left by Philbo & not yet taken by Sprong.

Edit: Which wing does Brassard play? Both?

Sign Derek Ryan 4C, She-man 3C Brass top 6 wing. Sprong 3rd line.

Disco won a cup, is he even coaching now?

There are some really good coaches in the league. I dont think Sully is one. Just average and can be replaced. Lemieux ran the team when Bowman was coach, he's considered one of the best ever. Sully just makes some pretty amateur moves.
- sammy87

The best coach on this team is Jaques Martin. How much longer is he going be here is the question?

Sullivan is an above average coach. He does a decent job of seeing what works against different teams. I think this years problem was two-fold: A) Teams measured themselves against Pittsburgh all season. B) The Pens were a tired group.

Thinking more a Dman from them then see if a ufa can be signed to fill the hole left by Philbo & not yet taken by Sprong.
- Aussiepenguin

The only dman I'd want from them is Dougie Hamilton. But that's plugging one hole and opening another. Plus, Phil would have to accept a trade to Refinery Land.

Disco won a cup, is he even coaching now?

There are some really good coaches in the league. I dont think Sully is one. Just average and can be replaced. Lemieux ran the team when Bowman was coach, he's considered one of the best ever. Sully just makes some pretty amateur moves.
- sammy87

Bylsma and Sullivan are worlds apart. Sullivan was handicapped by a less than complete roster for most of the season. This is undeniable.

I will say Sully made a few "Bylsmaesque" decisions this season, but it's waaaaay to early to stain him with Bylsma's name.

I guess we're hearing different sentiment.
- Rinosaur

I don't really hear it. I analyze it with my own eyes and look at the numbers.

If I see a game where the Pens got out played and Sid has 4 points, and they win 5-4... I would say the Pens got pretty lucky Sid exploded for 4 points.

If I see a game where Murray makes 45 saves but generate 19 shots of their own, and the Pens win 2-0 with an ENG, I say the Pens got pretty luck that Murray was on standing on his head.

I believe that one player's individual performance can attribute to a teams luck.

If the majority of a teams performance is outweighed by an individual's performance, I would say overall, the team got lucky because as a whole, their play was sub-par.

Same goes with ridiculous deflection goals, teams outshot 40-25, 2 of their 3 goals are weird bounces, deflections... Pens got lucky bounces.

Luck exists in many different ways.

This is my biggest issue here...

Why is it when your star players step up people consider it the star players coming through and carrying the team, but good goaltending is luck? Why is there a distinction there?

Plus, as you said, they were opportunistic. It's not that easy to be opportunistic was we witnessed this year. Whatever anyone thinks of Murray, he kept the Pens in plenty of games this year, but they just couldn't score.

You can't win a game simply on goaltending. The rest of the team has to do their part.
- Rinosaur

Goaltending stats are just as much of a team stat as +/-.

The only dman I'd want from them is Dougie Hamilton. But that's plugging one hole and opening another. Plus, Phil would have to accept a trade to Refinery Land.
- jmatchett383

Check the edit to plug the hole.

Lots of unknowns. Is Hamilton & Kessel close value?

The only dman I'd want from them is Dougie Hamilton. But that's plugging one hole and opening another. Plus, Phil would have to accept a trade to Refinery Land.
- jmatchett383

Jesus, could you imagine Hamilton here? He makes the exact same mistakes as Letang. They'd run him out of town after one season.

I don't really hear it. I analyze it with my own eyes and look at the numbers.

If I see a game where the Pens got out played and Sid has 4 points, and they win 5-4... I would say the Pens got pretty lucky Sid exploded for 4 points.

If I see a game where Murray makes 45 saves but generate 19 shots of their own, and the Pens win 2-0 with an ENG, I say the Pens got pretty luck that Murray was on standing on his head.

I believe that one player's individual performance can attribute to a teams luck.

If the majority of a teams performance is outweighed by an individual's performance, I would say overall, the team got lucky because as a whole, their play was sub-par.

Same goes with ridiculous deflection goals, teams outshot 40-25, 2 of their 3 goals are weird bounces, deflections... Pens got lucky bounces.

Luck exists in many different ways.


- j.boyd919

I'd say the Penguins are lucky that they have a player who has enough skill to put up 4 points any given night and a goalie with enough skill to tip their scales most nights.

Now, if they are winning games 4-3 because Tom Kuhnackle scores a hat trick and their 3rd string goalie stop 57 of 60 shots, I'd call that luck. But I wouldn't expect that to be the norm over a best-of-7 series, let alone 4 of them.

If there was a realistic trade-world there with Kessel, I'd imagine we'd be looking at teams like STL, LAK, DAL, MIN, ANA, etc... The problem for me there is you're probably not going to get what you should for Kessel from those teams.
- Rinosaur

Steen and Kostin for Kessel and Random prospect.

Jesus, could you imagine Hamilton here? He makes the exact same mistakes as Letang. They'd run him out of town after one season.
- j.boyd919

And he'd still be their best defenseman.

I guess the only solution is to go trade for Victor Hedman.

Steen and Kostin for Kessel and Random prospect.
- Feds91Stammer

Not even sure if you're serious LOL

Steen has to be one of the worst contracts around.

I don't really hear it. I analyze it with my own eyes and look at the numbers.

If I see a game where the Pens got out played and Sid has 4 points, and they win 5-4... I would say the Pens got pretty lucky Sid exploded for 4 points.

If I see a game where Murray makes 45 saves but generate 19 shots of their own, and the Pens win 2-0 with an ENG, I say the Pens got pretty luck that Murray was on standing on his head.

I believe that one player's individual performance can attribute to a teams luck.

If the majority of a teams performance is outweighed by an individual's performance, I would say overall, the team got lucky because as a whole, their play was sub-par.

Same goes with ridiculous deflection goals, teams outshot 40-25, 2 of their 3 goals are weird bounces, deflections... Pens got lucky bounces.

Luck exists in many different ways.


- j.boyd919

You're giving one game examples, which of course exists in hockey, but your examples aren't great to begin with. If Murray outplays the other goalie and they win, unless the other team has hit a bunch of posts, then that's simply a key player of a team out-playing the other team The goalie is part of the team. If Crosby has all of the points, does it matter? He's part of the team too. Why didn't the other team's top line match that?

And no team is getting through a 16 win postseason on luck.