Keep talking.
- JRoenick97

100% agree....I recognize kane is not a Selke type player but he's not 100% awful either.
- SteveRain

Agreed.

The 2 players are not really to be compared, other than for salary which is totally irrelevant on the ice. First, one is a 2 way center and the other a scoring winger. (Remember when Stanbo had that brilliant idea back in about 2011 that Kane could be made into a center? Same stupid result as the Habs have found out this year with Jonathan Drouin.)

However, both of their games are not immune from criticism, especially this year. I can't give you a count, but if you took all of the missed goal scoring chances by Line 1 (Saad, Toews, Panik, Duclair and Debrincat) you have a massive scoring point total. Combine that with the zero production PP, that's why they aren't a playoff team. What they are is a 2 goal a game maximum squad at 5 on 5 and they lose almost every time the opposition scores 3 or more.
- RickJ

I liked 19 and defended his deal, but he has truly declined the past 2-3 years. I don't know what his training regime is in the offseason, but I don't see a guy getting better. I see a stagnant player, and a good one at that, but not an elite player.

For all the hoopla about his defensive game, he got destroyed by Johansson last spring. Destroyed. Physically and on the scoreboard. I know his game is more blended overall, but a guy playing top 6 minutes as a center shouldn't need others around him to help HIM produce which is exactly why they brought Saad back knowing what lied ahead with Hossa.

Toews defensively I don't worry about...most nights. Toews offensively? At this point anything he generates I consider a bonus. This team continues to be a 1 line team at times and you can easily point to the stagnation or drop off in 19's production. That's why I enjoy when they are on NBCSN because you get that national perspective without the spin.

Based on the beginning of Toews career, I truly expected him to be an annual 75+ pts per year player, and 30 goals. He's far from it.

He isn't cherry picking.....watch the game. He's helping on D and if he weren't do you think Quenneville would have him on the ice up 1 on the road with 30 seconds left? NO.

Get over the stigma.....he has evolved into a decent 2 way player. He will never be Hossa, but he isn't a huge defensive liability like he was in 2008-09

If you want to get critical and call out stars.....I'd like to 2/7/19/20 all before looking at 88.....Keith has 0 goals.......and is earning 5.5 million. Seabrook can't even tie up a 4th liners stick in front of the net and he's earning 6.875, Saad hasn't done a damn thing in so long I can't even remember the last time he scored a goal or was noticeable the entire goal....he's earning 6 million, and 19 while he had a nice game last night, continues to NOT finish grade A chances.....and he's earning 10.5 million

Oh and this organization continues to cater to 19 by bringing back Saad to help jump start 19, and all it shows is that 19 has truly become an offensive anchor that kills guys....so bad, 20 is now off his line.

Meanwhile Panarin has 13/28 in 50 games compared to Saad's stellar 13/11 in 51 games. But I'm so glad the meatheads go their wish and got dat Russian out of here.......so far that's going very well.......
- SteveRain

GREAT POST SR............ Once again ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON !!!
Between Toews and Quenneville, I really can't make up my mind who I'd want GONE tomorrow if I had the choice.

Quenneville catering to 19 with wayyyy too much ice time because he's the Captain and the only C that can "possibly win a key faceoff ??? Please..... He often looks like he plays with a broomstick in his hand versus his stick....... and he gets blown away defensively repeatedly in trying to get back to defend when he must...ie last night when 4 forwards were on the ice at the end of the PP. Yes Debrincat had the puck along the boards and lost it but watch closely and Toews was gliding back, not pumping his legs in a desperate situation. Just plain lazy and showed no determination or response to a possible trouble situation. Toews was probably thinking of this Team's slogan of "One Goal"........thinking that it's only one goal to give up, so what !!!! Horrible. And I don't want to hear from anybody who's going to try to claim that he was at the end of a shift and was probably tired....BS........ then get off the ice. IMO, 19 has very little strength in his legs and can only pump his legs for one trip down the ice........ Great NEW diet Captain and your example of weakness probably has the other guys shaking their heads from the bench.

As for Quenneville........ this team has totally quit on him. The player shuffling for the past 3 years has been demoralizing to the players themselves and the PP as mentioned at nauseam is one of the worst consistently every darn year. His lack of intensity towards coaching it is sickening with comments like we just have to get the puck to the net more, or we have to get excited, or we need more guys going to the net ??? Is that COACHING ???? Where is the system ? Vancouver's PP of spreading out the down low forwards gave the Hawks fits last night. We can blame Dineen all we want but it's Quenneville's team and the PP has looked exactly the same for years, no matter who was coaching it.

As mentioned by a few so far......... anything less that 2 Regulation wins against Calgary these next 2 games will be the end of this lunacy, and the search to replace Quenneville will begin, if it hasn't already. As for Toews, who the heck knows where that's going to go, probably nowhere.

We can all thank Stan Bowman for his No Movement Clauses and all the other bad contracts as well, along with a thank you for the 3 CUPS, but he has his handwriting on all this as well. What a Mess for a team that should still be competing in the playoffs in April.........NO CHANCE !!

Three of the Vancouver goals were deflections.

Sedin (on his goal) was all alone IN THE BLUE PAINT for what seemed liked seconds - Keith (I think) about 10 feet away - why did no one go to him to knock him out of the play? Why didn’t Forsberg at least give him some hard “taps” to bother him (if not a good hard cross check into his back)? HE WAS IN THE BLUE PAINT ALL ALONE!!!!
- StLBravesFan

Believe that was the play Konroyd said Osterle gave Keith a "tough spot" pass and it was turned over...Os challenged the shooter didn't block it and Keith was in no man's land as Sedin was left all alone.

They have done that for years....They always have D on the side of the guy in the paint....and I have no clue why, and last night it cost them.....and probably is almost the final nail in the coffin for the season.

I'm sure Kane being at the opposing blue line looking for a free goal was the main problem though............

Hey John McDonough, you are not totally blameless in this mess. Maybe it is time for a complete organizational shakeup. The full seats are going to turn into empty seats very soon. The wait list is being contacted in anticipation of alot on non renewals.

I still really like this team

Three of the Vancouver goals were deflections.

Sedin (on his goal) was all alone IN THE BLUE PAINT for what seemed liked seconds - Keith (I think) about 10 feet away - why did no one go to him to knock him out of the play? Why didn’t Forsberg at least give him some hard “taps” to bother him (if not a good hard cross check into his back)? HE WAS IN THE BLUE PAINT ALL ALONE!!!!
- StLBravesFan

AH..........the next time Duncan Keith clears anybody from the crease will be his first......... it's not his game.

What's worse that a Hawks loss?

Having Goalie-33 show up and reading his posts.

GREAT POST SR............ Once again ABSOLUTELY SPOT ON !!!
Between Toews and Quenneville, I really can't make up my mind who I'd want GONE tomorrow if I had the choice.

Quenneville catering to 19 with wayyyy too much ice time because he's the Captain and the only C that can "possibly win a key faceoff ??? Please..... He often looks like he plays with a broomstick in his hand versus his stick....... and he gets blown away defensively repeatedly in trying to get back to defend when he must...ie last night when 4 forwards were on the ice at the end of the PP. Yes Debrincat had the puck along the boards and lost it but watch closely and Toews was gliding back, not pumping his legs in a desperate situation. Just plain lazy and showed no determination or response to a possible trouble situation. Toews was probably thinking of this Team's slogan of "One Goal"........thinking that it's only one goal to give up, so what !!!! Horrible. And I don't want to hear from anybody who's going to try to claim that he was at the end of a shift and was probably tired....BS........ then get off the ice. IMO, 19 has very little strength in his legs and can only pump his legs for one trip down the ice........ Great NEW diet Captain and your example of weakness probably has the other guys shaking their heads from the bench.

As for Quenneville........ this team has totally quit on him. The player shuffling for the past 3 years has been demoralizing to the players themselves and the PP as mentioned at nauseam is one of the worst consistently every darn year. His lack of intensity towards coaching it is sickening with comments like we just have to get the puck to the net more, or we have to get excited, or we need more guys going to the net ??? Is that COACHING ???? Where is the system ? Vancouver's PP of spreading out the down low forwards gave the Hawks fits last night. We can blame Dineen all we want but it's Quenneville's team and the PP has looked exactly the same for years, no matter who was coaching it.

As mentioned by a few so far......... anything less that 2 Regulation wins against Calgary these next 2 games will be the end of this lunacy, and the search to replace Quenneville will begin, if it hasn't already. As for Toews, who the heck knows where that's going to go, probably nowhere.

We can all thank Stan Bowman for his No Movement Clauses and all the other bad contracts as well, along with a thank you for the 3 CUPS, but he has his handwriting on all this as well. What a Mess for a team that should still be competing in the playoffs in April.........NO CHANCE !!
- Hawkytalk

Thanks HT

Agreed......You know the other thing about 19, how many times a game does this guy fall down? I counted at least 4 times that's after I noticed a few before that. Seems like every shift he ends on his knees, or face down like he can't find his balance, or is trying to compensate for something. Very strange. Never seen a professional fall down that often....of course 2 did back in 2010 but Foley alerted us that the damn folks at Bauer didn't send him the correct skates so we knew why that was happening......

yeah they are just about there in regards to being done. Sad to. Figured they were a fringe team but didn't think they'd be REALISTICALLY eliminated before Valentines day. So for all the hard talk the players, coaches, management did, what comes next? It can't be chalking it up to bad luck, or this or that.....they have now go 3 years without winning a playoff series....that's more then just 1 thing, and now Wirtz is taking it where it hurts him the most......in the wallet.

Think the Hawks need an outside voice to look at this team, certain players, and offer a true honest opinion without bias. Something Q and his staff cant' give right now, and Bowman can't either. From there, they need to get with 19 and get him right because for what they are paying him he isn't worth 75% of that money right now, and if he won't change or fix what is ailing him, then I think you have to realistically look at moving him before he becomes like 7 and his deal is a catastrophic financial burden on the cap.

I liked 19 and defended his deal, but he has truly declined the past 2-3 years. I don't know what his training regime is in the offseason, but I don't see a guy getting better. I see a stagnant player, and a good one at that, but not an elite player.

For all the hoopla about his defensive game, he got destroyed by Johansson last spring. Destroyed. Physically and on the scoreboard. I know his game is more blended overall, but a guy playing top 6 minutes as a center shouldn't need others around him to help HIM produce which is exactly why they brought Saad back knowing what lied ahead with Hossa.

Toews defensively I don't worry about...most nights. Toews offensively? At this point anything he generates I consider a bonus. This team continues to be a 1 line team at times and you can easily point to the stagnation or drop off in 19's production. That's why I enjoy when they are on NBCSN because you get that national perspective without the spin.

Based on the beginning of Toews career, I truly expected him to be an annual 75+ pts per year player, and 30 goals. He's far from it.
- SteveRain

The best comparable in assessing Toews is Patrice Bergeron, almost identical type players. One is having a great season, the other is having his problems. Over his career Bergeron has had a couple of down years, injuries playing a big part in it. Lets hope Toews can find a way to rebound.

Johansen - that series was his claim to fame. He's motoring along with 5 goals this year so far. Very good team in Nashville, but he may turn out to be a big contract mistake @ $8M per.

What's worse that a Hawks loss?

Having Goalie-33 show up and reading his posts.
- spudrock512

The latter

Patrick kane is the devil and because he can float and can't be head hunted like it's 1985 it's even worse.

Funny, that I recall a certain Semenko being paired with Gretzky back in the day that allowed 99 to float around do his thing back when men were men.......and Stevie Y had Probert with him, and on it goes.

So I'm sure if Kane were playing in 1985 he'd have a huge goon racking up 300-400 PM a year to protect him.

I do admire his hatred. Tops mine of Bolland.

Believe that was the play Konroyd said Osterle gave Keith a "tough spot" pass and it was turned over...Os challenged the shooter didn't block it and Keith was in no man's land as Sedin was left all alone.

They have done that for years....They always have D on the side of the guy in the paint....and I have no clue why, and last night it cost them.....and probably is almost the final nail in the coffin for the season.

I'm sure Kane being at the opposing blue line looking for a free goal was the main problem though............
- SteveRain

I LOLed.

AH..........the next time Duncan Keith clears anybody from the crease will be his first......... it's not his game.
- Hawkytalk

He can tie a guys stick up.

I liked 19 and defended his deal, but he has truly declined the past 2-3 years. I don't know what his training regime is in the offseason, but I don't see a guy getting better. I see a stagnant player, and a good one at that, but not an elite player.

For all the hoopla about his defensive game, he got destroyed by Johansson last spring. Destroyed. Physically and on the scoreboard. I know his game is more blended overall, but a guy playing top 6 minutes as a center shouldn't need others around him to help HIM produce which is exactly why they brought Saad back knowing what lied ahead with Hossa.

Toews defensively I don't worry about...most nights. Toews offensively? At this point anything he generates I consider a bonus. This team continues to be a 1 line team at times and you can easily point to the stagnation or drop off in 19's production. That's why I enjoy when they are on NBCSN because you get that national perspective without the spin.

Based on the beginning of Toews career, I truly expected him to be an annual 75+ pts per year player, and 30 goals. He's far from it.
- SteveRain

I worry about his defensive game too. Getting kicked out of what seems like every third draw. Not showing the hustle on the back check like he used to. Those penalties he takes are mainly due to him not moving his feet and being lazy. Physically speaking he doesn't win as many one on one battles anymore.

He understands the defensive game better than almost anyone but I don't think his defensive game is what it once was either physically speaking.

The best comparable in assessing Toews is Patrice Bergeron, almost identical type players. One is having a great season, the other is having his problems. Over his career Bergeron has had a couple of down years, injuries playing a big part in it. Lets hope Toews can find a way to rebound.

Johansen - that series was his claim to fame. He's motoring along with 5 goals this year so far. Very good team in Nashville, but he may turn out to be a big contract mistake @ $8M per.
- RickJ

I don't disagree with any of this.....My point on Johansen was that he just owned Toews. INjuries, back, head, whatever ailed 19 last April, he got taken to the wooden shed, so while so many are so quick to point to the zone entries against 7 in that series and the dominance that continued, I just like to point out Toews getting owned as well.

Very good point on Bergeron. I haven't checked in on Kopitar either. I just expect more out of 19......I hope he has a back issue he's hiding as his skating looks painful to watch and his falling down is worrisome in that regard. Can you think of another top player who falls down as many times as 19 does a game? It's nuts.

I LOLed.
- JRoenick97

No joke...you know who did that? Toews in the 1st period when he probably deserved a penalty shot but he has hanging out way too high for a center.

I think another factor is how the game has changed and evolved. I think that now, more than ever, guys need to put forth the complete effort. Kane does it at times, but he will always been more offensive minded. I think there are other factors that come into play when he is on the ice as well.

1) The team is more often shifting position because Kane's likes to cycle from his office on the half boards along the blue line, etc. Great when it is working, but I think sometimes the Hawks hurt themselves by getting their own guys out of position. High risk/reward.

2) The Hawks D that often see the ice when Kane is out there are not exactly pillars of strength defensively. Q likes to put some of the "join the rush" types on the ice with Kane's line to generate offense, but those guys are not the best defensively.

3) Schmaltz for as well as he plays and as hard as he works, is inexperienced and loses a fair number of draws still. For example, I've seen a number of games/periods start out exactly like this. Line 1 takes the first shift, ends with a shot on goal, which the opposing goalie holds. Line 2 comes out for their turn and the Ozone draw. Schmaltz loses the draw of the line turns it over and spends the much of their shift chasing in their own zone having to defend.

Kane is a exciting and skilled guy. He does what he does really well, but they need to find a way to balance it out when that line is on the ice. It isn't all on Kane, but no player has been on the ice for more even strength goals against (more than goals for) GF 41 GA 45. Kane has carried the team offensively at times, but when he is not scoring, the fact that his line gets scored on often is a problem.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't the only problem. Line 1 still needs to finish their chances. Toews had multiple good looks and so did Duclair, and they just missed them all. If this were horseshoes, it would be great, but in hockey, close doesn't cut it.
- breadbag

To me it’s more forwards not realizing where they’re supposed to be and ending up with all three caught caught in deep. Like this:

Three of the Vancouver goals were deflections.

Sedin (on his goal) was all alone IN THE BLUE PAINT for what seemed liked seconds - Keith (I think) about 10 feet away - why did no one go to him to knock him out of the play? Why didn’t Forsberg at least give him some hard “taps” to bother him (if not a good hard cross check into his back)? HE WAS IN THE BLUE PAINT ALL ALONE!!!!
- StLBravesFan

Here's the visual https://twitter.com/CMS_7...status/959290006794747905

I think the issue here is that it seems Toews can be relentlessly attacked by fans for not producing enough points, but the fact that he completely neutralizes his opposition is just brushed off as if he's playing the role of a third line grinder. But when Kane is producing points and not getting back defensively, or slacking off getting back to the bench for a change (this happens more than a lot of people would like to admit), it's generally viewed as okay because Kane has a sexy point total to his name.


That's my view from watching every game. I personally appreciate what both guys bring, but I trust Toews a lot more than I trust Kane to bring 100% every night. There's a reason the coaching staff does, too.
- Hawks_49

To me it’s more forwards not realizing where they’re supposed to be and ending up with all three caught caught in deep. Like this:




- walleyeb1

Those plays burn them when nobody stays back, but they did have control of the puck up until Kane threw it to the other team and sent them out of the zone. Doesn't get credit for that assist.

To me it’s more forwards not realizing where they’re supposed to be and ending up with all three caught caught in deep. Like this:




- walleyeb1

Great visual.....with 3 minutes left though you'd be expect them to be pressing but to your point, this happens even earlier in games by numerous lines on this team and the D this year isn't strong enough to make up for these mistakes.

I don't disagree with everything you say, but you don't seem to ever give credit when credit is due. You're not the least bit objective as far as I can tell.
- 6628

Well this cartoon of a poster is STAYING HOT....

What's worse that a Hawks loss?

Having Goalie-33 show up and reading his posts.
- spudrock512

Can't handle the fact that in BIGGEST GAME OF YEAR 88 was -3??

5:24 of PP time & failed??

Got it

Those plays burn them when nobody stays back, but they did have control of the puck up until Kane threw it to the other team and sent them out of the zone. Doesn't get credit for that assist.
- breadbag

Yep and we ended up by the time the Canucks score with Saad as the only forward in our D zone. Kane obviously was stuck behind the net, no idea where Scmaltz went. Can’t really tell from the replay.