He wasn't even the best D-man on his own team
- classic321

In what sense?

"So, what changed? If you were to look at Juolevi’s boxcar metrics alone, you’d posit that nothing changed, and that’s the exact problem. Juolevi matched his offensive outputs (42 points) from a season ago with an extra game to his credit.

This is an instance where surface-level, counting stats scouting really fails the player in question, though. What actually changed was Juolevi’s role."

"Instead of playing in a predominantly offensive role, as he did in his draft season, Juolevi was the Knights shut down defenceman. Knights head coach Dale Hunter called on Juolevi to play with a 17-year-old defenceman as his primary partner, kill penalties on the Knights first unit and defend leads late in games. Juolevi played the ninth-highest estimated QoC (Quality of Competition) at five-on-five in the OHL last season according to www.prospect-stats.com, and in those minutes the Knights controlled 58% of the goals scored."

"That Juolevi didn’t show offensive growth in the form of increased scoring totals shouldn’t be a surprise in this context. Not in the slightest. To suggest he hasn’t grown period, though, is patently false."

He wasn't even the best D-man on his own team
- classic321

You come across as a child with posts like this. Back it up with evidence or go to bed

In what sense?

"So, what changed? If you were to look at Juolevi’s boxcar metrics alone, you’d posit that nothing changed, and that’s the exact problem. Juolevi matched his offensive outputs (42 points) from a season ago with an extra game to his credit.

This is an instance where surface-level, counting stats scouting really fails the player in question, though. What actually changed was Juolevi’s role."

"Instead of playing in a predominantly offensive role, as he did in his draft season, Juolevi was the Knights shut down defenceman. Knights head coach Dale Hunter called on Juolevi to play with a 17-year-old defenceman as his primary partner, kill penalties on the Knights first unit and defend leads late in games. Juolevi played the ninth-highest estimated QoC (Quality of Competition) at five-on-five in the OHL last season according to www.prospect-stats.com, and in those minutes the Knights controlled 58% of the goals scored."
- LeftCoaster

and??????????

I prefer more tangible data which is relevant to D-man
zone entry
entry denials
successful breakouts

and??????????
- classic321

Great rebuttal

and??????????
- classic321

You said he wasn't the best dman on his team, best at what? Overall? Define the metrics. Different players play different roles. His obviously changed this year.

We'll agree to disagree I guess. I see and read clear growth in his overall game. He's developing the defensive side of his game, and clearly he's done an excellent job of it.

I like the way he's developing, personally.

and??????????

I prefer more tangible data which is relevant to D-man
zone entry
entry denials
successful breakouts
- classic321

These are stats that depend entirely on "quality of competition" you're facing, as oppose to the person you're comparing him to, they also depend on who's on the ice with you and who your partner is as oppose to whom you're comparing him to.

When you're a dman facing the other teams first line every shift you're entry denials can't be compared to the teams best offensive dman who faces the other teams third and second lines most of the time.

When you're a dman not playing your minutes with your own teams first line, the most offensive line, your zone entries will be down when you're comparing him to the teams offensive dman.

When you're trying to breakout with third line guys do you think you'll have as much success as the guy breaking out with the first line guys?

It's not as black and white as you're making it seem. Thus stats can be deceiving sometimes. Deployment skews all the stats you're mentioning without breaking it down.

These are stats that depend entirely on "quality of competition" you're facing, as oppose to the person you're comparing him to, they also depend on who's on the ice with you and who your partner is as oppose to whom you're comparing him to.

When you're a dman facing the other teams first line every shift you're entry denials can't be compared to the teams best offensive dman who faces the other teams third and second lines most of the time.

When you're a dman not playing your minutes with your own teams first line, the most offensive line, your zone entries will be down when you're comparing him to the teams offensive dman.

When you're trying to breakout with third line guys do you think you'll have as much success as the guy breaking out with the first line guys?

It's not as black and white as you're making it seem. Thus stats can be deceiving sometimes. Deployment skews all the stats you're mentioning without breaking it down.
- LeftCoaster

To me this is the issue with anyone that is reliant on stats as their go to assessment on any players specific skill set. There are too many variables in play and stats look at specific criteria to justify their position, one only has to look at Tanner as an example of a stats driven individual to justify why certain players or teams don't measure up.

To me this is the issue with anyone that is reliant on stats as their go to assessment on any players specific skill set. There are too many variables in play and stats look at specific criteria to justify their position, one only has to look at Tanner as an example of a stats driven individual to justify why certain players or teams don't measure up.
- Makita

I definitely agree with this.
There are intangibles that stats dont show. Watch some games for christs sake people

and??????????

I prefer more tangible data which is relevant to D-man
zone entry
entry denials
successful breakouts
- classic321

I tried giving you the benefit of doubt for this one as I'm generally interested in analytics but I can't see any stats database tracking OHL zone entry/exits.

The only thing I found was 1 article from Juolevi's draft year comparing top prospects. The author was using 5-7 viewings of the players (way too small to be relevant) and the only criticism of Juolevi's was that he struggled as a PP QB, offensive force. Which I don't think anyone should be surprised with.

http://nhlnumbers.com/201...ibles-2015-16-season-data

He's long been compared with Hamhuis, Vlasic style players and while that might not be sexy, it's still extremely valuable.

To me this is the issue with anyone that is reliant on stats as their go to assessment on any players specific skill set. There are too many variables in play and stats look at specific criteria to justify their position, one only has to look at Tanner as an example of a stats driven individual to justify why certain players or teams don't measure up.
- Makita

The exact same argument could be made replacing " reliant on stats " with " reliant on eyetest" and replacing Tanner with a similarly idiotic fan boy of the traditional eyetest metric.

There is a place for both in the professional scouting world IMO, which clearly none of us are part of. The difference between the two is that by their very nature Stats are unbiased ( not to say they cannot be twisted or interpreted incorrectly ) and most importantly accessible to every fan.

These are stats that depend entirely on "quality of competition" you're facing, as oppose to the person you're comparing him to, they also depend on who's on the ice with you and who your partner is as oppose to whom you're comparing him to.

When you're a dman facing the other teams first line every shift you're entry denials can't be compared to the teams best offensive dman who faces the other teams third and second lines most of the time.

When you're a dman not playing your minutes with your own teams first line, the most offensive line, your zone entries will be down when you're comparing him to the teams offensive dman.

When you're trying to breakout with third line guys do you think you'll have as much success as the guy breaking out with the first line guys?

It's not as black and white as you're making it seem. Thus stats can be deceiving sometimes. Deployment skews all the stats you're mentioning without breaking it down.
- LeftCoaster

Just another person who depends on stats. Stats were created to aid a bit. If stats were all that was used, there wouldnt be need for scouts. I dont see computer nerds running hockey anytime soon

Just another person who depends on stats. Stats were created to aid a bit. If stats were all that was used, there wouldnt be need for scouts. I dont see computer nerds running hockey anytime soon
- manvanfan

As mentioned by belcherbd, I think they definitely have their place, but they have to be used in the right context.

These are stats that depend entirely on "quality of competition" you're facing, as oppose to the person you're comparing him to, they also depend on who's on the ice with you and who your partner is as oppose to whom you're comparing him to.

When you're a dman facing the other teams first line every shift you're entry denials can't be compared to the teams best offensive dman who faces the other teams third and second lines most of the time.

When you're a dman not playing your minutes with your own teams first line, the most offensive line, your zone entries will be down when you're comparing him to the teams offensive dman.

When you're trying to breakout with third line guys do you think you'll have as much success as the guy breaking out with the first line guys?

It's not as black and white as you're making it seem. Thus stats can be deceiving sometimes. Deployment skews all the stats you're mentioning without breaking it down.
- LeftCoaster

Maybe the coach said be the shutdown D this year.

Just finished watching the game.

I thought Brett McKenzie and Molino really stuck out as mature players for forwards. I would be interested in why the Canucks have McKenzie returning for his overage year in the OHL. He has size, his defensive game has always been good and has broken out offensively in a big way.

Carol, if you get a chance to talk to someone this weekend in the organization, I would love to hear their thoughts on McKenzie.

I also thought Boeser is clearly the most skilled and doesn't need many opportunities to make an impact. That said I also thought he had some pretty lazy plays in his own zone.

Juolevi looked great IMO, kids going to be important for us down the road.

Just finished watching the game.

I thought Brett McKenzie and Molino really stuck out as mature players for forwards. I would be interested in why the Canucks have McKenzie returning for his overage year in the OHL. He has size, his defensive game has always been good and has broken out offensively in a big way.

Carol, if you get a chance to talk to someone this weekend in the organization, I would love to hear their thoughts on McKenzie.

I also thought Boeser is clearly the most skilled and doesn't need many opportunities to make an impact. That said I also thought he had some pretty lazy plays in his own zone.

Juolevi looked great IMO, kids going to be important for us down the road.
- belcherbd

OJ skating is awesome. I was surprised when he got beat by speed a couple times. Good recoveries. Something he will learn playing bigger, faster competition. Lind looked like a player who can get the puck to the net, Gad looks like a player who is going to score a heck of a lot of garbage goals. Gads could be Vans next Burrows. Carcone showed some fight, literally.

Good debate going on in here.

Good debate going on in here.
- thundachunk

It's not angry enough.

OJ skating is awesome. I was surprised when he got beat by speed a couple times. Good recoveries. Something he will learn playing bigger, faster competition. Lind looked like a player who can get the puck to the net, Gad looks like a player who is going to score a heck of a lot of garbage goals. Gads could be Vans next Burrows. Carcone showed some fight, literally.
- manvanfan

I was also impressed by Lind but Gadjovich and Carcone were a bit meh for me. It was a nice finish for Jonah but he had an open net after being set up nicely.

I thought Stukel and lucach(sp?) Flashed some skill and MacEwan had a strong all round game. Hard to get too excited at this tournament but fun to actually have something of substance to talk about.

Just finished watching the game.

I thought Brett McKenzie and Molino really stuck out as mature players for forwards. I would be interested in why the Canucks have McKenzie returning for his overage year in the OHL. He has size, his defensive game has always been good and has broken out offensively in a big way.

Carol, if you get a chance to talk to someone this weekend in the organization, I would love to hear their thoughts on McKenzie.

I also thought Boeser is clearly the most skilled and doesn't need many opportunities to make an impact. That said I also thought he had some pretty lazy plays in his own zone.

Juolevi looked great IMO, kids going to be important for us down the road.
- belcherbd

Boeser looks close but the lazy reaching with his stick in his own zone isn't going to get him any bonus points from Green.

Joulevi looks good but nothing that has really stood out in one game to say he's an NHLer.

Hard to get a real good look at players with choppy 1st game play.

It's not angry enough.
- Marwood

Don't worry, your buddy will be here soon to change that.

It's not angry enough.
- Marwood

6 more years of Horvat

Dahlen in the AHL

Hockey is back, what's there to be angry about.

Gaunce won't be ready to start the season......at least we now have a legit reason why he couldn't score right?

I was also impressed by Lind but Gadjovich and Carcone were a bit meh for me. It was a nice finish for Jonah but he had an open net after being set up nicely.

I thought Stukel and lucach(sp?) Flashed some skill and MacEwan had a strong all round game. Hard to get too excited at this tournament but fun to actually have something of substance to talk about.
- belcherbd

Gadj played with urgency in his game. I liked that a lot. Just for that he was my player of the game.

These games mean something. Some of them know how much.

6 more years of Horvat

Dahlen in the AHL

Hockey is back, what's there to be angry about.

Gaunce won't be ready to start the season......at least we now have a legit reason why he couldn't score right?
- belcherbd

He was the only reason I was looking forward to this season. Such highs & lows, from the overwhelming relief that Vegas didn't take him to the crushing dissapointment that he is not healthy to start the regular season.

Boeser looks close but the lazy reaching with his stick in his own zone isn't going to get him any bonus points from Green.

Joulevi looks good but nothing that has really stood out in one game to say he's an NHLer.

Hard to get a real good look at players with choppy 1st game play.
- thundachunk

Fo Sho

Gadj played with urgency in his game. I liked that a lot. Just for that he was my player of the game.

These games mean something. Some of them know how much.
- thundachunk

(frank) that, no way Gadjovich was player of the game.