fire giroux
- 2Real

into the sun

Hossa and Keith being signed to cap circumventing deals gave them extra cap space to afford a better roster. For a cap expert like yourself, this should be obvious.
- Feanor

Working within the rules of the CBA at the time. Good for them. I hope our GM is doing anything possible within the rules to win.

That's about contract signing, not drafting and developing players, and finding players in other ways.


They've won 3 Cups in what 6 years? How many players on those teams were signed to 12 year contracts?
- MJL

You're right. Signing two superstar players to now illegal contracts that keep their cap hits way below their salary isn't what it's about.

The answer to your question is two. The millions of dollars of cap space they saved in signing those contracts during the cup years is close to 4.

edit: assist feanor

Working within the rules of the CBA at the time. Good for them. I hope our GM is doing anything possible within the rules to win.
- mickel25

I'm not saying they did anything wrong. Just that it isn't possible anymore.

blackhawks model is outdated as well

I have no problem with Hextalls plan and I dont think the Flyers need to draft inside the top 5-10 in order to win a cup
- YuenglingJagr

That word again. They don't NEED to do anything. They could pick a 6th rounder this year that's their franchise star. They could find an undrafted, 6'5" RH d man who becomes a star. I've been quite clear that it's doable. It's also rare and not a longterm formula. Finding good players late is good scouting. But finding star level talent is just fluky, and you know it.

Fact is we don't really know Hextall's plan long-term. We just know he's stockpiling prospects and not making bad signings. Does he actually think this roster is competitive in 1-2 years and that Giroux is still in his prime, good enough to be the best forward on a Cup team? Because I don't see this team being really competitive before 3-5 years. 5 years sounds like so long.....and yet Provorov will only be 25. But then Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds (is he re-signed to 6-7 years at age 31?) will be close to their mid 30s. I don't see them being the top talent leading a Stanley Cup team at that point in their careers. They were, but it's questionable even now, let alone in several years. We'll have to see what happens in a few years, but yeah, I do worry about the possibility Hextall is trying to have his cake and eat it too regarding the prospects and current "core."

Going back to the list you provide. 8 appearances in the finals for both the bolded and non-bolded players. Why is it even? The non-bolds are generational players.

My point is this. Yes would I rather have Crosby over Bergeron or Kopitar. Of course I would. However, I do not think you need to be terrible for 4-5 years to get good to win the Cup. Again, if you draft well, develop well and maximize your assets you will have a chance to win for an extended period of time. Same as if you pick 1-5 for a few years. Ask Edmonton if they are happy with being basically irrelevant since the last time they went to the Finals.
- mickel25

The only reason Edmonton is relevant now is because they were awful while trying to be good and received some "draft luck" allowing them to draft a generational talent. The jury is still out whether they've put the pieces together or ever will.

I'm not saying they did anything wrong. Just that it isn't possible anymore.
- Feanor

I think team needs to be ahead of the curve on players now. You need to keep the right players and get rid of the wrong players. The Pens and Hawks are very good at both.

Hossa and Keith being signed to cap circumventing deals gave them extra cap space to afford a better roster. For a cap expert like yourself, this should be obvious.

If you use the salary from the first 8 years of each deal, Hossa's cap hit jumps from $5.275m to $7.413m and Keith's jumps from $5.538m to $7.219m. So that's an extra $3.819m in cap space per season.
- Feanor

LOL, the cap comes into play with who you can keep and decisions you have to make. Do you believe that the when the Hawks are scouting players in juniors and in other leagues such as the KHL, and using their main methods of player acquisitions that the cap comes into play in their decision making on who to draft, or into what undrafted players they're going to offer a EL deal to? As a cap expert, I know that it doesn't.

The only reason Edmonton is relevant now is because they were awful while trying to be good and received some "draft luck" allowing them to draft a generational talent. The jury is still out whether they've put the pieces together or ever will.
- Baxter27

Oilers fans who are 40 years old, have seen 5 Cups, got to watch Gretzky in his prime for a decade, and now have McDavid. Boy.... I bet they wish they were Flyers fans.

That word again. They don't NEED to do anything. They could pick a 6th rounder this year that's their franchise star. They could find an undrafted, 6'5" RH d man who becomes a top pair guy. I've been quite clear that it's doable. It's also rare and not a longterm formula. Finding good players late is good scouting. But finding star level talent is just fluky, and you know it.

Fact is we don't really know Hextall's plan long-term. We just know he's stockpiling prospects and not making bad signings. Does he actually think this roster is competitive in 1-2 years and that Giroux is still in his prime, good enough to be the best forward on a Cup team? Because I don't see this team being really competitive before 3-5 years. 5 years sounds like so long.....and yet Provorov will only be 25. But then Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds (is he re-signed to 6-7 years at age 31?) will be close to their mid 30s. I don't see them being the top talent leading a Stanley Cup team at that point in their careers. They were, but it's questionable even now, let alone in several years. We'll have to see what happens in a few years, but yeah, I do worry about the possibility Hextall is trying to have his cake and eat it too regarding the prospects and current "core."
- Mononoke

I just dont understand the debate. It is clear that tanking and trying to acquire multiple high draft picks is the easier and more proven method.

It is also very clear that Hextall won't be tanking.

The way he has drafted so far, I have no worries that he can pull it off. The problems will come from when they have to resign certain players that would signal the end of younger players. I don't think it has happened yet, and I also don't think Hextall will do it. His MO has always been to wait as long as possible on almost every move

You're right. Signing two superstar players to now illegal contracts that keep their cap hits way below their salary isn't what it's about.

The answer to your question is two. The millions of dollars of cap space they saved in signing those contracts during the cup years is close to 4.

edit: assist feanor
- YuenglingJagr

You're right, it's not what it's all about. That's 2 players out of how many that have played on that team during their cup runs? The Hawks have built their team through the draft primarily like pretty much every team has. So your statement that the Hawks method of building a team is outdated, is false. They've had to move a bunch of players due to cap space issues, and they keep rolling along, and keep finding good young players.

Oilers fans who are 40 years old, have seen 5 Cups, got to watch Gretzky in his prime for a decade, and now have McDavid. Boy.... I bet they wish they were Flyers fans.
- PLindbergh31

Do you think I care about 40 year old Oiler fans?

That word again. They don't NEED to do anything. They could pick a 6th rounder this year that's their franchise star. They could find an undrafted, 6'5" RH d man who becomes a star. I've been quite clear that it's doable. It's also rare and not a longterm formula. Finding good players late is good scouting. But finding star level talent is just fluky, and you know it.

Fact is we don't really know Hextall's plan long-term. We just know he's stockpiling prospects and not making bad signings. Does he actually think this roster is competitive in 1-2 years and that Giroux is still in his prime, good enough to be the best forward on a Cup team? Because I don't see this team being really competitive before 3-5 years. 5 years sounds like so long.....and yet Provorov will only be 25. But then Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds (is he re-signed to 6-7 years at age 31?) will be close to their mid 30s. I don't see them being the top talent leading a Stanley Cup team at that point in their careers. They were, but it's questionable even now, let alone in several years. We'll have to see what happens in a few years, but yeah, I do worry about the possibility Hextall is trying to have his cake and eat it too regarding the prospects and current "core."
- Mononoke

Who says any of those players are on the team in 3-5 years? Real question. Do you think the Islanders should blow it up? Trade Tavares and start over?

Going back to the list you provide. 8 appearances in the finals for both the bolded and non-bolded players. Why is it even? The non-bolds are generational players
- mickel25

Because you can have a star player and still have your TEAM not be Cup caliber if other pieces aren't in place. I don't even want to talk in those facile terms. Like I said 10 times already. Being a Cup caliber player doesn't mean you're actually leading your team there if the rest of your roster falls short. Just compare individual centers to individual centers because you can't start adding in 20 other pieces to the conversation and pretend they're on an equal playing field.

Also, the bolded are mostly older. That's kind of important too.

Ok he's not perfect. However, if Weiss was producing like past years that contract would be appropriate. He is not so if can be questioned no doubt.

I feel overall Hextall has a good grasp on what a player is worth.
- mickel25

Most GM's do. When it comes to Free Agency, the market is set, and really the decision comes down to what players to go after in the market. They don't have the luxury of hindsight in making the decision like so many of the people who criticize them for moves do. I think the biggest thing Hextall understands is that he has to draft and develop, and not to get into any big money free agent deals right now, and for the foreseeable future.

Because you can have a star player and still have your TEAM not be Cup caliber if other pieces aren't in place. I don't even want to talk in those terms. Like I said 10 times already. Being a Cup caliber player doesn't mean you're actually leading your team there if the rest of your roster falls short. Just compare individual centers to individual centers because you can't start adding in 20 other pieces to the conversation and pretend they're on an equal playing field.

Also, the bolded are mostly older. That's kind of important too.
- Mononoke

I agree with the age portion. However, in terms of success the bolds and non-bolds are equal.

I think we are both right to a point. Hopefully, Hextall has the right formula.

That word again. They don't NEED to do anything. They could pick a 6th rounder this year that's their franchise star. They could find an undrafted, 6'5" RH d man who becomes a star. I've been quite clear that it's doable. It's also rare and not a longterm formula. Finding good players late is good scouting. But finding star level talent is just fluky, and you know it.

Fact is we don't really know Hextall's plan long-term. We just know he's stockpiling prospects and not making bad signings. Does he actually think this roster is competitive in 1-2 years and that Giroux is still in his prime, good enough to be the best forward on a Cup team? Because I don't see this team being really competitive before 3-5 years. 5 years sounds like so long.....and yet Provorov will only be 25. But then Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds (is he re-signed to 6-7 years at age 31?) will be close to their mid 30s. I don't see them being the top talent leading a Stanley Cup team at that point in their careers. They were, but it's questionable even now, let alone in several years. We'll have to see what happens in a few years, but yeah, I do worry about the possibility Hextall is trying to have his cake and eat it too regarding the prospects and current "core."
- Mononoke

I think it's just the reality. I think moving some players has to be considered. If they could get a good deal for Giroux, they should consider it. As painful as that is to say.

LOL, the cap comes into play with who you can keep and decisions you have to make. Do you believe that the when the Hawks are scouting players in juniors and in other leagues such as the KHL, and using their main methods of player acquisitions that the cap comes into play in their decision making on who to draft, or into what undrafted players they're going to offer a EL deal to? As a cap expert, I know that it doesn't.
- MJL

I'm not sure what you think the Blackhawks model is, other than draft good players, which is every team's model.

Most teams do not have core players locked up on cap circumventing deals.

You're right, it's not what it's all about. That's 2 players out of how many that have played on that team during their cup runs? The Hawks have built their team through the draft primarily like pretty much every team has. So your statement that the Hawks method of building a team is outdated, is false. They've had to move a bunch of players due to cap space issues, and they keep rolling along, and keep finding good young players.
- MJL

I just dont understand the debate. It is clear that tanking and trying to acquire multiple high draft picks is the easier and more proven method.

It is also very clear that Hextall won't be tanking.

The way he has drafted so far, I have no worries that he can pull it off. The problems will come from when they have to resign certain players that would signal the end of younger players. I don't think it has happened yet, and I also don't think Hextall will do it. His MO has always been to wait as long as possible on almost every move
- YuenglingJagr

I'm with you, I have faith in what Hextall is doing and what we can reasonably expect him to do.

I'm not sure what you think the Blackhawks model is, other than draft good players, which is every team's model.
- Feanor

said like a true non self proclaimed cap expert

Do you think I care about 40 year old Oiler fans?
- Baxter27

You mentioned the Oilers and relevance. I can assure you they have always been relevant.

I'm not sure what you think the Blackhawks model is, other than draft good players, which is every team's model.


- Feanor

It's the model that every team uses, not to the same level of success. So it seems we're in agreement. The Blackhawks methods and model of building a team is not outdated.

You mentioned the Oilers and relevance. I can assure you they have always been relevant.
- PLindbergh31

Thanks for the history lesson.

You mentioned the Oilers and relevance. I can assure you they have always been relevant.
- PLindbergh31

They haven't made the playoffs in 10 years. How were they relevant during that period? Because of a Cup won in 1990?