2007: Macdonald/Selane or Getzlaf/Perry
2008: Datsyuk/Zetterberg
2009 : Crosby/Malkin
2010: Toews/Kane
2011: Bergeron/Krejic
2012: Kopitar/Brown
2013: Toews/Kane
2014: Kopitar/Carter
2015: Toews/Kane
2016: Crosby/Malkin

In the last 10 years only half the Stanley cup champions and 1/3 of organizations to win the cup had a 1-2 punch provided as a result of tanking. But it's apparently absolutely necessary.
- Baxter27

That's a faulty way of looking at it IMO. Firstly, no one used the word "tank" -- you don't have to tank to draft top 10, and they can also be traded for. And just because 1 team wins a Cup every season doesn't mean they're the only team that is good enough to win one, with a good enough top forward (or two) to win. There are plenty of teams with good enough elite forwards to win, but shortcomings elsewhere due to roster flaws. That's not their fault, anymore than it's Giroux's fault his prime was wasted. You can't just ascribe an entire Cup to 1 center. It's a big team effort.

The only way to properly evaluate is looking at, say, 1Cs across the league in a vacuum and determine if they're good enough to be plugged into a Cup roster to win. The fact is that #1 centers who were not top 10 picks are more anomalous. You don't need high picks to acquire top talent, but surprise!, it's easier and that's were the elite talent tends to congregate. If your main strategy is to get lucky finding the next Bergeron or Datsyuk in the 2nd or 6th round and just wait for that anomalous event to occur, which it might not, then good luck. Because you're finding a needle in a hay stack.

Kopitar is more of an in between. The Kings also used one of their awful years to get Doughty. They also acquired Carter using Jack Johnson (former 3rd overall pick) as the centerpiece of the deal.

The tanking isn't entirely about what you get with those picks though. It's the opportunity to take several bites at the apple through other means as well.
- PhillySportsGuy

Now you're stretching. They drafted Kopitar in a "weak draft" exactly where we drafted Morin and could very well be drafting this year. For all we know, Provorov could develop into a similar player to Doughty.

The Carter trade was more about luck and a savvy trade then drafting Jack Johnson almost 8 or 9 years before the trade was made. What about guy's like Brown, Quick and Williams? You could argue they were the biggest key depending on the cup run. Just as you could argue Keith played a bigger role than Kane and Toews in some of Chicago's cup runs.


Bottom line is it takes a team and there is more then one way to build one. Hextall is on pace to make about 30 draft picks in 3 years. He's taking plenty of bites out of the apple.

2C playing 10-15 a game?

G - 17-20
Coots 18-20
Cousins 10-15
YKW 10-15
- dragonoffrost

Cousins has been playing wing for a while now. Hak didn't trust him at 2C even when Couturier was injured.

Now you're stretching. They drafted Kopitar in a "weak draft" exactly where we drafted Morin and could very well be drafting this year. For all we know, Provorov could develop into a similar player to Doughty.

The Carter trade was more about luck and a savvy trade then drafting Jack Johnson almost 8 or 9 years before the trade was made. What about guy's like Brown, Quick and Williams? You could argue they were the biggest key depending on the cup run. Just as you could argue Keith played a bigger role than Kane and Toews in some of Chicago's cup runs.


Bottom line is it takes a team and there is more then one way to build one. Hextall is on pace to make about 30 draft picks in 3 years. He's taking plenty of bites out of the apple.
- Baxter27

Absolutely agree.

That's a faulty way of looking at it IMO. Firstly, no one used the word "tank" -- you don't have to tank to draft top 10, and they can also be traded for. And just because 1 team wins a Cup every season doesn't mean they're the only team that is good enough to win one, with a good enough top forward (or two) to win. There are plenty of teams with good enough elite forwards to win, but shortcomings elsewhere due to roster flaws.

The only way to properly evaluate is looking at, say, 1Cs across the league in a vacuum. The fact is that #1 centers who were not top 10 picks are more anomalous. You don't need high picks to acquire top talent, but surprise!, it's easier and that's were the elite talent tends to congregate. If your main strategy is to get lucky finding the next Bergeron or Datsyuk in the 2nd or 6th round and just wait for that anomalous event to occur, which it might not, then good luck. Because you're finding a needle in a hay stack.
- Mononoke

Ok go back to the top five picks in the last ten drafts. Can you find 5 players in the rest of the draft that are as good our better. My guess is at least half of those years you can.

If you draft consistently well you do not need a top pick even once. I agree it does help when Crosby or Ovechkin are there. However, those guys are more anomalous than finding really good players throughout the entirety of the draft.

Since the lockout, roughly, here are 1Cs probably good enough to win or to have won the Cup:


Boston: Bergeron/Krejci (a bit unusual 1B/1B)...#45/#63
Toronto: Matthews....#1
Florida: Barkov...#2
Buffalo: Eichel (questionable)....#2
Tampa: Stamkos...#1
Detroit: Datsyuk/Zetterberg (both formerly)....#171/#210
Chicago: Toews....#3
Dallas: Seguin...#2
Winnipeg: Scheifele...#7
Washington: Backstrom....#4
Carolina: Eric Staal (formerly)...#2
Pittsburgh: Crosby/Malkin....#1/#2
Philadelphia: Giroux....#22
NYI: Tavares...#1
San Jose: Thornton...#1
Anaheim: Getzlaf....#19
Edmonton: McDavid/Draisaitl (maybe)...#1/#3
LA: Kopitar....#11



The bolded are guys who weren't top 10 picks. Even a guy like Scheifele I considered bolding because he's the only one of the rest who wasn't top 5. And Kopitar at #11 is close enough. It's just a tough truth. Defenseman are way riskier and less certain, and you'll routinely see guys outside the top 10 or even first round who are studs. Forwards just are more known quantities. You know better what you're getting. It's doable to hit on someone later, but it is playing with fire if that's your Plan A. And rarely are you winning when those top players are out of their prime. Look at their ages and career arcs at the time of winning.

I think most people would actually oversell the PP and undersell how good he can be at other strengths with the right linemates. But yes, he's at BEST probably a 2nd line 5v5 player. He's back with Coots now and they always do well together. Line was a bright spot last night.
- Mononoke

With Ghost benched and Konecny hurt/benched, it's almost been like a chore watching these last few games. I guess I could put up with this style of play if they were winning cups like the Devils were, but watching this team look so impotent is just depressing.

Weal is 2nd in the AHL in scoring... I assume it won't happen but it would be nice if they would see what he can do at the NHL level while Konecny is out. Either put him in Konecny's spot on the 2nd line or on the 1st and move Raffl down to the 2nd or 3rd line.

I believe all of those teams won with goalies they drafted as well.
- mickel25

False.

Niemi wasn't drafted

Since the lockout, roughly, here are 1Cs probably good enough to win or to have won the Cup:


Boston: Bergeron/Krejci (a bit unusual 1B/1B)...#45/#63
Toronto: Matthews....#1
Florida: Barkov...#2
Buffalo: Eichel (questionable)....#2
Tampa: Stamkos...#1
Detroit: Datsyuk/Zetterberg (both formerly)....#171/#210
Chicago: Toews....#3
Dallas: Seguin...#2
Winnipeg: Scheifele...#7
Washington: Backstrom....#4
Carolina: Eric Staal (formerly)...#2
Pittsburgh: Crosby/Malkin....#1/#2
Philadelphia: Giroux....#22
NYI: Tavares...#1
San Jose: Thornton...#1
Anaheim: Getzlaf....#19
Edmonton: McDavid/Draisaitl (maybe)...#1/#3
LA: Kopitar....#11



The bolded are guys who weren't top 10 picks. Even a guy like Scheifele I considered bolding because he's the only one of the rest who wasn't top 5. And Kopitar at #11 is close enough. It's just a tough truth. Defenseman are way riskier and less certain, and you'll routinely see guys outside the top 10 or even first round who are studs. Forwards just are more known quantities. You know better what you're getting. It's doable to hit on someone later, but it is playing with fire if that's your Plan A. And rarely are you winning when those top players are out of their prime. Look at their ages and career arcs at the time of winning.
- Mononoke

Not for nothing but the bolds are only one behind non-bolds in terms of Stanley Cups at 6-5

False.

Niemi wasn't drafted
- Scoob

My bad. He was signed as a free agent by the Hawks...right?

My bad. He was signed as a free agent by the Hawks...right?
- mickel25

lol, yes

Dave Isaac ‏@davegisaac now2 minutes ago
Konecny out at least a month with left leg injury: http://ift.tt/2kPAW0C #Flyers

Weal is 2nd in the AHL in scoring... I assume it won't happen but it would be nice if they would see what he can do at the NHL level while Konecny is out. Either put him in Konecny's spot on the 2nd line or on the 1st and move Raffl down to the 2nd or 3rd line.
- dra4477

Weal should play center if he's called up.

Since the lockout, roughly, here are 1Cs probably good enough to win or to have won the Cup:


Boston: Bergeron/Krejci (a bit unusual 1B/1B)...#45/#63
Toronto: Matthews....#1
Florida: Barkov...#2
Buffalo: Eichel (questionable)....#2
Tampa: Stamkos...#1
Detroit: Datsyuk/Zetterberg (both formerly)....#171/#210
Chicago: Toews....#3
Dallas: Seguin...#2
Winnipeg: Scheifele...#7
Washington: Backstrom....#4
Carolina: Eric Staal (formerly)...#2
Pittsburgh: Crosby/Malkin....#1/#2
Philadelphia: Giroux....#22
NYI: Tavares...#1
San Jose: Thornton...#1
Anaheim: Getzlaf....#19
Edmonton: McDavid/Draisaitl (maybe)...#1/#3
LA: Kopitar....#11



The bolded are guys who weren't top 10 picks. Even a guy like Scheifele I considered bolding because he's the only one of the rest who wasn't top 5. And Kopitar at #11 is close enough. It's just a tough truth. Defenseman are way riskier and less certain, and you'll routinely see guys outside the top 10 or even first round who are studs. Forwards just are more known quantities. You know better what you're getting. It's doable to hit on someone later, but it is playing with fire if that's your Plan A. And rarely are you winning when those top players are out of their prime. Look at their ages and career arcs at the time of winning.
- Mononoke

Both the bold and non-bolds have appeared in 8 finals apiece.

Now you're stretching. They drafted Kopitar in a "weak draft" exactly where we drafted Morin and could very well be drafting this year. For all we know, Provorov could develop into a similar player to Doughty.

The Carter trade was more about luck and a savvy trade then drafting Jack Johnson almost 8 or 9 years before the trade was made. What about guy's like Brown, Quick and Williams? You could argue they were the biggest key depending on the cup run. Just as you could argue Keith played a bigger role than Kane and Toews in some of Chicago's cup runs.


Bottom line is it takes a team and there is more then one way to build one. Hextall is on pace to make about 30 draft picks in 3 years. He's taking plenty of bites out of the apple.
- Baxter27

I think you're misunderstanding my tanking view. I'm not saying the team needs to become the worst in hockey in order to secure the best odds. I'm saying the team should look to trade some of its best players for future assets. They'll have the future assets and the added benefit of a higher draft pick.

There are multiple ways to build a contender, but the most effective method is by stockpiling at least a 2-3 top 5 picks.

Yes, some good players get drafted in the middle of the first round or even the 2nd round, but lots of bad players get drafted there too. The difference between 91 points and 80 points is 5 wins and an OT loss. It's also potentially the difference between the 15th pick and the 5th pick. Are those 5 wins really worth that much? Would you trade 5 wins in a mediocre regular season for 10 spots on a draft board?

Not for nothing but the bolds are only one behind non-bolds in terms of Stanley Cups at 6-5
- mickel25

See my post at the top of the page

Brayden Schenn is a 25 goal 50-60 point player. I'm not sure in what league that constitutes a "3rd line at best" player.
- MJL

How many 5v5 points does he have?

That's a faulty way of looking at it IMO. Firstly, no one used the word "tank" -- you don't have to tank to draft top 10, and they can also be traded for. And just because 1 team wins a Cup every season doesn't mean they're the only team that is good enough to win one, with a good enough top forward (or two) to win. There are plenty of teams with good enough elite forwards to win, but shortcomings elsewhere due to roster flaws.

The only way to properly evaluate is looking at, say, 1Cs across the league in a vacuum. The fact is that #1 centers who were not top 10 picks are more anomalous. You don't need high picks to acquire top talent, but surprise!, it's easier and that's were the elite talent tends to congregate. If your main strategy is to get lucky finding the next Bergeron or Datsyuk in the 2nd or 6th round and just wait for that anomalous event to occur, which it might not, then good luck. Because you're finding a needle in a hay stack.
- Mononoke

I'm pretty sure the word tank has been used even if it wasn't by you. If you're trading your best players in their prime while you still have control over them for the foreseeable future, you are essentially "tanking" your chances for success. I'm pretty sure we agreed about the right time to consider trading Simmonds so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Yes I'm aware there is plenty of good teams in the NHL each season. What is the issue with Hextall's current approach that will prevent him from building a cup contender? Draft luck happens every year but I don't see Hextall depending on it. I see a GM who understands the importance of the draft but also want's to remain competitive. I'm completely onboard with that.

With Ghost benched and Konecny hurt/benched, it's almost been like a chore watching these last few games. I guess I could put up with this style of play if they were winning cups like the Devils were, but watching this team look so impotent is just depressing.
- PhillySportsGuy

Cups? What have they won one playoff series in the last 5 years?

With Ghost benched and Konecny hurt/benched, it's almost been like a chore watching these last few games. I guess I could put up with this style of play if they were winning cups like the Devils were, but watching this team look so impotent is just depressing.
- PhillySportsGuy

Last night the Flyers came out with an aggressive 2 man forecheck, and created a number of quality chances, including a couple of good second chance opportunities around the net. Unfortunately, the Blues ramped up their game, and the Flyers faltered. They're struggling to score, but I don't see a style of play comparable to the Devils in their cup years.

Weal should play center if he's called up.
- Feanor

Ideally, but I'd rather see them give him a shot at wing than not at all. That said centering the 2nd line with Schenn and Simmonds would work just as well if not better.

I think you're misunderstanding my tanking view. I'm not saying the team needs to become the worst in hockey in order to secure the best odds. I'm saying the team should look to trade some of its best players for future assets. They'll have the future assets and the added benefit of a higher draft pick.

There are multiple ways to build a contender, but the most effective method is by stockpiling at least a 2-3 top 5 picks.

Yes, some good players get drafted in the middle of the first round or even the 2nd round, but lots of bad players get drafted there too. The difference between 91 points and 80 points is 5 wins and an OT loss. It's also potentially the difference between the 15th pick and the 5th pick. Are those 5 wins really worth that much? Would you trade 5 wins in a mediocre regular season for 10 spots on a draft board?
- PhillySportsGuy

Together we can tank. Im all in

Dave Isaac ‏@davegisaac now2 minutes ago
Konecny out at least a month with left leg injury: http://ift.tt/2kPAW0C #Flyers
- Streit2ThePoint

Dammit! I only hope that Issac might be inaccurate here.

That's a faulty way of looking at it IMO. Firstly, no one used the word "tank" -- you don't have to tank to draft top 10, and they can also be traded for. And just because 1 team wins a Cup every season doesn't mean they're the only team that is good enough to win one, with a good enough top forward (or two) to win. There are plenty of teams with good enough elite forwards to win, but shortcomings elsewhere due to roster flaws. That's not their fault, anymore than it's Giroux's fault his prime was wasted. You can't just ascribe an entire Cup to 1 center. It's a big team effort.

The only way to properly evaluate is looking at, say, 1Cs across the league in a vacuum and determine if they're good enough to be plugged into a Cup roster to win. The fact is that #1 centers who were not top 10 picks are more anomalous. You don't need high picks to acquire top talent, but surprise!, it's easier and that's were the elite talent tends to congregate. If your main strategy is to get lucky finding the next Bergeron or Datsyuk in the 2nd or 6th round and just wait for that anomalous event to occur, which it might not, then good luck. Because you're finding a needle in a hay stack.
- Mononoke

Top talent is important. However, with both the Hawks and Pens they both continued to draft well and add key players via trade and FA. I think you have many options in terms of building a team. For every Pittsburgh there is a Detroit Red Wings.

Just draft well and maximize your assets. That gives you the best chance of winning in this league. Both the Hawks and Pens have done that for ten years now.