So you don't really mean, "adjust" for teammates. You just mean "in comparison to" teammates.
- prock

War-on-ice attempted an actual adjustment advanced analysis; trying to compare every player to a ‘replacement level’ player rather than a limited hero chart comparison based on jersey colour.

Their stuff was above my head technically, but conceptually made sense. Too bad they’re offline.

I don't buy that Bouwmeester is any better than Gio defensively and he doesn't hold a candle to him offensively, given Gio's 56 points and JayBo's 19.

Bouwmeester was on the ice for 50 GF, and 75 GA
Gio was on the ice for 112, and 116 GA

I'll take the guy with more offensive upside. I already know you and I don't see eye to eye in how we evaluate players.

EDIT: I'm looking for a better hockey player. I don't really care about the "defensive defensemen", "stay at home defensemen", "offensive defensemen" monikers.
- j.boyd919

There is no doubt that Bouwmeester is better defensively. Coaches look for mixes of players, and how they'll fit into roles. They just don't look at HERO charts and pick the best players. It's about fit.

I'd say Giordano has developed into a solid all round dman. His knock is his health. This season was his first full healthy season in a long time.

Given the choice, he'd be the easy decision for me.
- prock

That's interesting. You argued voraciously that Karlsson is not a good defender based on how many goals he was on the ice for. Karlsson has a GA/60 of 2.73, while Giordano's is worse at 2.80.

That's interesting. You argued voraciously that Karlsson is not a good defender based on how many goals he was on the ice for. Karlsson has a GA/60 of 2.73, while Giordano's is worse at 2.80.
- MJL

You're skimming the things I said.

Karlsson gets delpoyed in the offensive zone more than defensive, and still gives up more goals per 60, than his team mates, year after year.

Girodano gets deployed in the defensive zone at a higher rate than nearly everyone else on his team, and from year to year, the goals against go down with him on the ice, vs his team mates, significantly. This is the first year it's gone up.

the knock that most claim against using goals against is sample size. But when the goals are flooding into his own net, year after year, after year, at a ridiculous pace, at that pace is even worse than his horrid teammates, you start to wear down that argument. If something happens consistently, for several years, the whole CORSI using shots because of sample size loses it's effectiveness. CORSI can't account for everything. He's clearly not effective at keeping pucks out of his own net. It's a fact.

Talk to me when Giordano gets cushy deployment like Karlsson, and this happens, you know, more than one freakin year. like every single year, with Karlsson.

That's interesting. You argued voraciously that Karlsson is not a good defender based on how many goals he was on the ice for. Karlsson has a GA/60 of 2.73, while Giordano's is worse at 2.80.
- MJL

Dude's a donkey.

Dude's a donkey.
- j.boyd919

Stick to hockey please. If you can.

I don't buy that Bouwmeester is any better than Gio defensively and he doesn't hold a candle to him offensively, given Gio's 56 points and JayBo's 19.

Bouwmeester was on the ice for 50 GF, and 75 GA
Gio was on the ice for 112, and 116 GA

I'll take the guy with more offensive upside. I already know you and I don't see eye to eye in how we evaluate players.

EDIT: I'm looking for a better hockey player. I don't really care about the "defensive defensemen", "stay at home defensemen", "offensive defensemen" monikers.
- j.boyd919

Agree 100% Tanev, Giorgano, Brodie, Muzzin, Subban, Vlasic

That's what their D should look like at this tourny.

There is no doubt that Bouwmeester is better defensively. Coaches look for mixes of players, and how they'll fit into roles. They just don't look at HERO charts and pick the best players. It's about fit.
- MJL

I understand that, but at the moment I do not have hours to go through game tape. But given the tools I have, and statistics and analytics I have at my disposal and recent, but flawed memory of watching both players. Bouwmeester is an average hockey player at this point of his career, in offense and defense. Whereas Gio is well above average is offense, and even if he is average in defense, the upside he brings is offense will always outweigh someone who's average in every aspect.

Agree 100% Tanev, Giorgano, Brodie, Muzzin, Subban, Vlasic

That's what their D should look like at this tourny.
- James_Tanner

Do you ever wonder why the majority of the players you think are among the best in the league play for the worst teams in the league?

There is no doubt that Bouwmeester is better defensively. Coaches look for mixes of players, and how they'll fit into roles. They just don't look at HERO charts and pick the best players. It's about fit.
- MJL

There are flaws in hero charts. But they aren't that flawed.

If JB is ranked as suppressing shots that poorly, and Gio is ranked that highly, I don't think it's up for debate. That is a massive difference which can't be explained away with strawman arguments about flaws in the data or whatever.

Fact: Bouweester is an OK dman with good skating who's had a decent career and is currently about a 4th Dman. Giordano is among the best of the best and arguably even top 5 in the world.

Agree 100% Tanev, Giorgano, Brodie, Muzzin, Subban, Vlasic

That's what their D should look like at this tourny.
- James_Tanner

Might be hometown bias, but I'd rather have Letang over Tanev.

Do you ever wonder why the majority of the players you think are among the best in the league play for the worst teams in the league?
- prock

No because its really obvious.

Most people assume players on good teams are good and players on bad teams are flawed. Therefore, I don't need to convince anyone that Crosby and Toews are good players. I do have to convince people that Hall, Tanev and Giordano are though, apparently.

So maybe it looks like I always think only bad players are good, but really, I just don't need to write that Joe Thornton is awesome because everyone knows that.

Might be hometown bias, but I'd rather have Letang over Tanev.
- j.boyd919

Not even close. A healthy Letang is TOP dman.

Might be hometown bias, but I'd rather have Letang over Tanev.
- j.boyd919

I recently read a compelling argument that Tanev was among the best defensive players in the league. Maybe the actual best. It convinced me.

Not even close. A healthy Letang is TOP dman.
- prock

So is a healthy Chris Tanev.

So is a healthy Chris Tanev.
- James_Tanner

No he's not. He's a good dman, not a TOP dman.

I recently read a compelling argument that Tanev was among the best defensive players in the league. Maybe the actual best. It convinced me.
- James_Tanner

Over Vlasic? Do you have the article handy? I'd like to give it a read.

There are flaws in hero charts. But they aren't that flawed.

If JB is ranked as suppressing shots that poorly, and Gio is ranked that highly, I don't think it's up for debate. That is a massive difference which can't be explained away with strawman arguments about flaws in the data or whatever.

Fact: Bouweester is an OK dman with good skating who's had a decent career and is currently about a 4th Dman. Giordano is among the best of the best and arguably even top 5 in the world.
- James_Tanner

"it is more appropriate to think of RelTM metrics as a measure of a skater’s ability relative to teammates playing the same position."

https://ownthepuck.com/

Edit: link is dead. hopefully the hero chart site meets the same fate

I recently read a compelling argument that Tanev was among the best defensive players in the league. Maybe the actual best. It convinced me.
- James_Tanner

I'm guessing it all boiled down to one thing for you.

http://stats.hockeyanalys...ort=PCTRelTM&sortdir=DESC

"it is more appropriate to think of RelTM metrics as a measure of a skater’s ability relative to teammates playing the same position."

https://ownthepuck.com/

Edit: link is dead. hopefully the hero chart site meets the same fate
- Tumbleweed

Exactly. This is something that is above Tanner's head. You're not adjusting for teammates, you're comparing to them.

So, having a good RelTM on a crap team doesn't mean as much as having a good one on a good team. Like most stats, it has to be looked at in context. Deployment, how good your team is, etc.

It's fooling him into thinking that the only half-decent player on garbage teams are superstars that no one else seems to realize.

Exactly. This is something that is above Tanner's head. You're not adjusting for teammates, you're comparing to them.

So, having a good RelTM on a crap team doesn't mean as much as having a good one on a good team. Like most stats, it has to be looked at in context. Deployment, how good your team is, etc.

It's fooling him into thinking that the only half-decent player on garbage teams are superstars that no one else seems to realize.
- prock

Rel stats in Hero charts = only comparing payers wearing the same colour jersey.

i often find the colour of ones clothes makes the best samples for comparisons in life, not just hockey.

No because its really obvious.

Most people assume players on good teams are good and players on bad teams are flawed. Therefore, I don't need to convince anyone that Crosby and Toews are good players. I do have to convince people that Hall, Tanev and Giordano are though, apparently.

So maybe it looks like I always think only bad players are good, but really, I just don't need to write that Joe Thornton is awesome because everyone knows that.
- James_Tanner

So, it doesn't resonate for you, at all, that you think the majority of good players in the league are on terrible teams? Really? 4 of the 6 d you mentioned were on non-playoff teams. Your forward lineup would probably be similar.

The reason has nothing to do with people's perceptions, it's the measures you use, and your understanding of them.

Does it not seem at all strange to you, that you think the majority of the best players in the league are on the bottom 45% or so of teams in the league, by your criteria? Wouldn't logic dictate that good teams will have good players? Now, I mean, it's not like bad teams can't have good players, but common sense would say that the number of good players would be skewed towards good teams, doesn't it?

Rel stats in Hero charts = only comparing payers wearing the same colour jersey.

i often find the colour of ones clothes makes the best samples for comparisons in life, not just hockey.
- Tumbleweed

It's not useless, but just needs context. this is the problem with the advanced stats people in my mind. They take one or two of their favourite fancy new stats, and run with it. Half the time they don't understand it, and the other half they don't know what to do with it, and can't take it in context. They tend to lack the ability to step back, and look at everything together.

No he's not. He's a good dman, not a TOP dman.
- prock

Says you, with literally no argument to make.

Over Vlasic? Do you have the article handy? I'd like to give it a read.
- j.boyd919

The article has Vlasic as the #1 in the league. Tanev is high though, overall. Illl try and find it.