Was Crow considered an elite goalie prior to '13? Nope. People wanted to run him out of town. He made a name for himself in the playoffs that year with an elite level of play. And the '10 team was not a power house past the big 3 on the backend.

Is Tim Thomas considered an elite goalie? He had an elite level year and amazing playoff run. Rest of his career is all over the map. Quick's second cup his playoff stats are horrible. There are also tons of elite goalies that don't sniff cups because the teams in front of them are full of holes. Much like the current Hawk roster.

Sure an elite goalie helps you win a cup if the rest of your roster is rock solid. Except maybe the '12 Kings team all the Cup champs had pretty stacked rosters (Quick that year was just unreal).

I don't think Crawford, no matter how good his play is next year, can cover the shortcomings in this roster. He couldn't this year. I do think we could plug some of those holes and ride a hot Darling to a Cup next year.

To me it is stay with Crow and have no shot at a cup next year or move him fill in the D and maybe a top 6 LW and hope to ride a hot Darling to a Cup. Trading AA for a D just makes your forward group that much worse. You want to roll into next year with 4 legitimate top 6 forwards? Maybe 3.5 offensively speaking depending on what Hossa does. We saw how meh Toews looks with a slumping Hossa and rotating LW spot.

I'd love to be proved wrong if Crow stays but I just don't see it. I think fans need to take a hard look at reality. This teams roster as constructed is above average. Rest this summer is not the cure all.
- bhawks2241

Been through this I believe with JJ. Crow and Quick were on their way to becoming elite when they first won a cup they couldn't possibly be thought of as elite in the beginning of their careers. I put Murray in that category, that he won a cup but only time will tell if he's elite.

And yes, IMO Thomas was a top end goalie and over that 5 year run was elite and near off the charts.

If you don't think Crawford, Quick and Thomas are not elite I'm fine agreeing to disagree. And I still stand that after Nieme won a cup that an elite goalie has done so since with Murray yet to be determined.

Now do I think a non-elite goalie can win a cup? Besides the lightning in a bottle scenario I think you need at least a very good goalie (Mason-Talbot-Anderen-Mrazak-Elliot-Anderson) type when assets are allocated as such that the rest of your roster is better than most every others clubs.

Simply put Jimmy Howard has been about average since signing his big contract.
- Al

and that Detriot goalie situation bears watching too.

They thought Petr Mrázek was gonna be the guy, and he not only faltered but started giving dirty looks and bad body language to his players when he was screened or ended up putting his athletic self out of position.


Sure Howard makes more, but right now, they are not sure who is the guy, if the Cap determines it or if Petr Mrázek can be trusted long term as an answer.

curious indeed.

Doubt it, but I think they counted on the cap going up, and these contracts being a good deal by now.

Question is, why did they believe the cap would be to 80 by now, what led them to that assumption?

JJ, if you want to get some good investigative info, this is something I've wondered about, they had to think the cap was going up, someone led them to believe that. Who and what told them this.?
- vabeachbear

At the time, the Canadian dollar was strong and oil prices were high. No reason not to be optimistic. I'm sure they were factoring in progressive growth based on what it was. You can't devalue your assets by publicly saying "hold off, we aren't going to make money in the near future." And even if they tell the owners that privately, the actual spending would have shown that the owners knew the cap wasn't going to go up.

It's a poopstorm of a bunch of things at once + the CBA is owner-friendly and skewed towards small markets.

I saw that post and I'm not clear on what you mean.

As far as I know the Oilders were slated to draft 7th in 2013 and the Devils 9th. The Oilers drafted Nurse at #7 and the Devils traded #9 to the Canucks for Schneider and Vancouver then drafted Horvat. I'm not sure how The Oilers and Nurse are involved in the NJ/Vancouver trade?

http://www.draftsite.com/nhl/draft-history/2013/
- DarthKane

yeah I mia cupla that after I posted it again today I was flat wrong...all this time I thought it was the 7th pick they got ...

Also just heard from my top source that Gretzky and Lemieux are both willing to come out of retirement and sign cheap Cap friendly 1 year contracts to go after a Cup. Source says CHI is going hard after both. Deals could be finalized later today I'm told. Stay tuned.
- SimpleJack

Howe 'bout that...Hull of a team...

So we know the issue this year........

Lets look briefly next year.

Not only is final cap number but so is the OFFICIAL guidelines of expansion draft. Assuming it takes place right around or before the draft.

I think Hawks hold on to Crawford, as with darling being a UFA, why trade CC now and then have to pay big money to Darling knowing hs' the future guy. Extend Darling in season at a cheap amount and THEN deal Crow post 2016-17 season.

However, it's just getting started.

You have 57 and change committed to 11 guys next year. If you assume, like I will, that Panarin hits his bonus again to achieve a 5-7 AAV he wants next year, you are at 60,571,798 and you have to: still sign Shaw or replacement for Shaw, Kempy, Lundbergy (assuming he's on big club), Panik and Darling.....

So odds are you are at 64-65 million next year before trading Crawford or extending Panarin and best case you net 1 million or are EVEN there and still have to sign all the above........

So while he can stare at this year, next year is NO easier........

yeah I mia cupla that after I posted it again today I was flat wrong...all this time I thought it was the 7th pick they got ...
- wiz1901

It happens to us all. I'm wrong all the time, just ask my wife.

Howe 'bout that...Hull of a team...
- jimnhlnut

1. the hawks were not a cup contended last year: as you point out 5 on 5 was bad; toews had no one to play with; blue line was gassed and a mess, without 50, 72, 88 this team misses the playoffs

2. this playoff opened some eyes: a rookie goalie comes out of nowhere to help his team win the cup and another young goalie helps his team to the finals..expect a a goalie sale of big contract this summer and next unfortunately this dilutes the value of craw...but no question (regretably) he is gone this summer or next

3. would like to see shaw take a 2 year 6 mil friendly deal but he and his agent are not that dumb

If one of those players is Shaw at $3 mil per? What about Panarin next year? Anyone know if he has the same bonus structure in 16-17?!
- John Jaeckel

No, I know...I was just answering his question. He asked where our cap stood if Crawford was still on team. I have no clue what Bowman will do.

What about yesterday's signing of Cam Ward with recent trade partner Carolina? 2 year deal, $3.3 cap hit, coming off respectable year with 2.41 gaa and .909 save %. saves 2.7mill off crow's hit and is 2 years shorter. hate to lose crow but maybe that's Crow-light and a more reasonable cap hit for that position.

>If the market is flooded with goalies with big contracts, having Shaw's rights in your pocket is something the other GMs do not have
>Not saying -- trade Shaw's rights -- just pointing out a scenario that could happen
>And if you can move CC for a high #1 with no salary coming back -- do it immediately
>It appears the cap will be stagnant for quite some time
- SnapitUpstairs

When JJ posted yesterday that he's hearing a mid 1st round pick was being offered for Crow that was the first, and only time, I wrote down that they should trade him.

For me moving Crow is a last resort but freeing money to sign Panarin, and Shaw to a lesser extent, has to be found and if they can get a #1 pick while moving 6 mil with term that may be the very best option presented.

More on the Howard dilemma:
THE DETROIT NEWS: Ted Kulfan reports Red Wings GM Ken Holland acknowledged trading goalie Jimmy Howard might be good for the goalie and the organization. Howard, who’s earning nearly $5.3 million annually through 2018-19, lost the starter’s job to Petr Mrazek. Holland also said keeping his tandem intact could be a nice luxury. Kulfan points out moving Howard this summer won’t be easy, citing a lack of teams in the market for a netminder, Howard’s contract, the possible flood of goalies with contract issues (Tampa Bay’s Ben Bishop, Pittsburgh’s Marc-Andre Fleury, Anaheim’s Frederik Andersen) on the market this summer plus the return teams will want for those goaltenders.

They will leave Howard available next summer for the expansion draft if he is red wing this year

Edmonton would be a no...But Toronto seems a possibility as long as Crawford agrees.
- Al

man the leafs have 12 picks in this draft with 3 in the top 31; but they gotta alot of dead weight on that roster and their blueline =


what do they do with bernier?

Doesn't Hossa agreeing to go to Ottawa give the Hawks relief, provided he actually plays until the end of 2021.
The one thing about Hoss's deal is he can get hurt during the season, and provde some cap relief and he can basically play anywhere in the line scheme and be responsible...so I guess no on trading him...

Doubt it, but I think they counted on the cap going up, and these contracts being a good deal by now.

Question is, why did they believe the cap would be to 80 by now, what led them to that assumption?

JJ, if you want to get some good investigative info, this is something I've wondered about, they had to think the cap was going up, someone led them to believe that. Who and what told them this.?
- vabeachbear

A major factor leading to the current cap stagnation is the value of the Cdn$.

When Kane and Toews signed their deals in July, 2014 (IIRC), the Looney was worth US$ .91 - oil was over US$ 100 per barrel - and the league (and, to be fair, almost all economists) didn't see either falling dramatically.

Except for Seabrook, all of the $5MM+ contracts were signed before the Looney fell off of the cliff - Keith, Hossa, Sharp, Crawford, Bickell.

Had the Cdn$ stayed at the earlier level, the cap would be approaching $80MM by now.

Al says that an important factor is that US revenues - ticket sales, merchandise - haven't grown as much as expected, too.

More on the Howard dilemma:
THE DETROIT NEWS: Ted Kulfan reports Red Wings GM Ken Holland acknowledged trading goalie Jimmy Howard might be good for the goalie and the organization. Howard, who’s earning nearly $5.3 million annually through 2018-19, lost the starter’s job to Petr Mrazek. Holland also said keeping his tandem intact could be a nice luxury. Kulfan points out moving Howard this summer won’t be easy, citing a lack of teams in the market for a netminder, Howard’s contract, the possible flood of goalies with contract issues (Tampa Bay’s Ben Bishop, Pittsburgh’s Marc-Andre Fleury, Anaheim’s Frederik Andersen) on the market this summer plus the return teams will want for those goaltenders.

They will leave Howard available next summer for the expansion draft if he is red wing this year
- wiz1901

I'm sure part of Holland's challenge is the Howard isn't good. Stan would have more luck moving Crawford, if there are teams in the market for a big ticket netminder.

A major factor leading to the current cap stagnation is the value of the Cdn$.

When Kane and Toews signed their deals in July, 2014 (IIRC), the Looney was worth US$ .91 - oil was over US$ 100 per barrel - and the league (and, to be fair, almost all economists) didn't see either falling dramatically.

Except for Seabrook, all of the $5MM+ contracts were signed before the Looney fell off of the cliff - Keith, Hossa, Sharp, Crawford, Bickell.

Had the Cdn$ stayed at the earlier level, the cap would be approaching $80MM by now.

Al says that an important factor is that US revenues - ticket sales, merchandise - haven't grown as much as expected, too.
- StLBravesFan

Bingo! I was sure that it was gonna be 90 million and said so couple years back while apologizing for the StanBo deal he handed out awhile back...

The owners KNEW they were their worst enemy and I am sure they are gonna make sure they are able to spend more again next seaoson no matter what the economy says...they simply can't stop...and they will now stop the "stopper." (Cap)

I’d be open to acquiring Crawford. But only at a discount. Certainly not including any one-piece as valuable as a 9th overall.

There are other potential options with Andersen, MAF and Reimer out there this year.

If not, with the expansion draft, it seems like we can wait a year to see if we can find a goalie on the cheap.

We have lots of picks and forward prospects to trade. Bernier would also have to be included imo.

As much as I’d like shaw too, something like Yak for Shaw and pick was trade proposal I saw once that made some sense to me.
- Tumbleweed

Something I've read and wondered about. Do you think the Leafs will manipulate their roster for another year and try to end up drafting top 5 again before they make a full bore effort to ice their very best team?

If not and I'm then I look hard at RFA Freddy Andersen.

A major factor leading to the current cap stagnation is the value of the Cdn$.

When Kane and Toews signed their deals in July, 2014 (IIRC), the Looney was worth US$ .91 - oil was over US$ 100 per barrel - and the league (and, to be fair, almost all economists) didn't see either falling dramatically.

Except for Seabrook, all of the $5MM+ contracts were signed before the Looney fell off of the cliff - Keith, Hossa, Sharp, Crawford, Bickell.

Had the Cdn$ stayed at the earlier level, the cap would be approaching $80MM by now.

Al says that an important factor is that US revenues - ticket sales, merchandise - haven't grown as much as expected, too.
- StLBravesFan

NHL needs to get into the futures markets begin establishing hedges...basically their business model is a commodity

Yep, you were dreaming. I liked it, but didnt seem feasible. Here's your error, the overages:
Carry-over from 2015/16 year for bonuses: $3.07m
But Scud $1.125m and Runbad $100k are NOT in that $3.07m figure.
So you're $1.2m short of the money needed for that roster.

BTW, I would bet if they dont have plans for Runbad he will be dealt. They wont have him in Rock w $100k or buried cost. Just my bet on what happens to him.
- Cmonalready

Why would anyone give up even a bag of pucks for Rundblad?

Doesn't Hossa agreeing to go to Ottawa give the Hawks relief, provided he actually plays until the end of 2021.
The one thing about Hoss's deal is he can get hurt during the season, and provde some cap relief and he can basically play anywhere in the line scheme and be responsible...so I guess no on trading him...
- wiz1901

No, because they still get hit with the penalty for trading him.

Been through this I believe with JJ. Crow and Quick were on their way to becoming elite when they first won a cup they couldn't possibly be thought of as elite in the beginning of their careers. I put Murray in that category, that he won a cup but only time will tell if he's elite.

And yes, IMO Thomas was a top end goalie and over that 5 year run was elite and near off the charts.

If you don't think Crawford, Quick and Thomas are not elite I'm fine agreeing to disagree. And I still stand that after Nieme won a cup that an elite goalie has done so since with Murray yet to be determined.

Now do I think a non-elite goalie can win a cup? Besides the lightning in a bottle scenario I think you need at least a very good goalie (Mason-Talbot-Anderen-Mrazak-Elliot-Anderson) type when assets are allocated as such that the rest of your roster is better than most every others clubs.
- Mr Ricochet

Not arguing Quick is elite. He is. But their second cup he was rather mediocre in the playoffs.

Something I've read and wondered about. Do you think the Leafs will manipulate their roster for another year and try to end up drafting top 5 again before they make a full bore effort to ice their very best team?

If not and I'm then I look hard at RFA Freddy Andersen.
- Mr Ricochet

I think it comes down to stamkos. To me, he accelerates the rebuild by one-year.

If not, I think another top 5 pick and 10-12 picks total will be the goal for next year.

More on the Howard dilemma:
THE DETROIT NEWS: Ted Kulfan reports Red Wings GM Ken Holland acknowledged trading goalie Jimmy Howard might be good for the goalie and the organization. Howard, who’s earning nearly $5.3 million annually through 2018-19, lost the starter’s job to Petr Mrazek. Holland also said keeping his tandem intact could be a nice luxury. Kulfan points out moving Howard this summer won’t be easy, citing a lack of teams in the market for a netminder, Howard’s contract, the possible flood of goalies with contract issues (Tampa Bay’s Ben Bishop, Pittsburgh’s Marc-Andre Fleury, Anaheim’s Frederik Andersen) on the market this summer plus the return teams will want for those goaltenders.

They will leave Howard available next summer for the expansion draft if he is red wing this year
- wiz1901

And add Riemer as a UFA to further muddle the market.