Well, you're not wrong. But at the same time, the game should always be evolving.
- James_Tanner

Agreed. And it always does. Cheers

I'm sort of confused by the application of the term guilty pleasure. I wouldn't be ashamed to like one of the most interesting artists in existence.
- James_Tanner

lot of my friends don't like Grimes somehow. Not in any way ashamed though

I'm not bashing him, he's great. It's an amazing feat to be one of the ten best defenseman in the NHL, but giving him a lifetime achievement Norris is disrespectful to the whole process.

Erik Karlsson makes the Senators the best team in hockey when he's on the ice and is fourth in NHL scoring. What more needs to be said?
- James_Tanner

The fact that Ottawa missed the playoffs would seem to conflict with that statement. Your penchant for unsubstantiated hyperbole really is what makes it hard take a lot of what you say seriously. Karlsson is undoubtedly great, but he hasn't been the best defenseman in the league this year, unless you are strictly counting points. How can they be the best team in hockey when he is on the ice if he was a minus 2? As others have pointed out his possession stats aren't anywhere close to Doughty, or Letang, Burns, Hedman, etc either.

The fact that Ottawa missed the playoffs would seem to conflict with that statement. Your penchant for unsubstantiated hyperbole really is what makes it hard take a lot of what you say seriously. Karlsson is undoubtedly great, but he hasn't been the best defenseman in the league this year, unless you are strictly counting points. How can they be the best team in hockey when he is on the ice if he was a minus 2? As others have pointed out his possession stats aren't anywhere close to Doughty, or Letang, Burns, Hedman, etc either.
- Emperor Filonius

Plus Minus is a pretty stupid stat. His Minus 2 is more than likely a plus if you remove empty net goals, but it's still a dumb stat for all sorts of other reasons, mostly because what his goalie does isn't related to him at all. (His goalie has a low S% when he's on the ice, and that is pretty random).

Furthermore, his possession is better than all those other guys - relative to his team.

Karlsson is so good that you could take 20 points off his total and he still deserves the Norris.

lot of my friends don't like Grimes somehow. Not in any way ashamed though
- DutchSenators

Get new friends. Just kidding, if I play my Grimes CD at poker everyone will cry like crazy.

I just can't do it anymore with the Doughty bashing.

It amazes me how people find ways to criticize the guys that always win.

It's a desperate attempt to sound smarter than others
- sbroads24

I don't think that people are bashing Doughty per se, as he is a really good player. But you must admit that circumstances can definitely lead to certain players being more over or underrated than they otherwise would be.

If Doughty was born in Latvia and drafted by Buffalo, he would have zero Olympic medals, zero Stanley Cups, and this "winner" reputation who is "due for a Norris" would be completely different, even if he were the exact same player that he is today

I don't think that people are bashing Doughty per se, as he is a really good player. But you must admit that circumstances can definitely lead to certain players being more over or underrated than they otherwise would be.

If Doughty was born in Latvia and drafted by Buffalo, he would have zero Olympic medals, zero Stanley Cups, and this "winner" reputation who is "due for a Norris" would be completely different, even if he were the exact same player that he is today
- wilkobecks

Couldn't the same be said about anyone not born in an elite hockey nation or on an elite nhl team ?


Plus, it's as if you're downplaying his contribution cause he happens to play on a great team. More specifically, He's one of the reasons that team is so great. Even arguably the biggest reason

Also, when teams make better draft picks of guys like Drew doughty, those are generally building block moves to making s better team. It's not just the high pick, it's that he's actually a superstar.
So your assertion about the Sabres is nothing more then supposition. Quite plausibly the Sabres are much better over the last while and even have the ability to sign better free agents etc etc had they drafted drew doughty years ago

John,

Doughty is the most important individual player on the Kings, for sure.

But who could argue Keith is the most important player on the Hawks? Especially this year of all years? Is he an excellent defenseman? Yes, quite. But when the league MVP and runaway scoring leader plays on Chicago, I'm pretty sure that makes Keith at best the second most important player...

Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. I can't understand how each individual player on the Blackhawks can be the best because "they are still playing at this time of year." You think the Hawks would have missed the playoffs if they had Karlsson instead of Keith?
- Mr_Clean

Totally agree..
While it would hurt there chances for sure, the Kings would still have a reasonable chance of winning the cup without Doughty, the West is so tough that they could easily lose in RD1 even with Doughty, just depends on who they matchup with.

The Hawks without Keith? (which would actually be a thing if the DoPs had any common sense, but that is for a whole other day) They would have as good a chance as any other team in the league of winning the Cup even without him

The Sens without Karlsson are:

Totally agree..
While it would hurt there chances for sure, the Kings would still have a reasonable chance of winning the cup without Doughty, the West is so tough that they could easily lose in RD1 even with Doughty, just depends on who they matchup with.

The Hawks without Keith? (which would actually be a thing if the DoPs had any common sense, but that is for a whole other day) They would have as good a chance as any other team in the league of winning the Cup even without him

The Sens without Karlsson are:

- wilkobecks

As good a chance !!?? Are you kidding ?

Neither the Kings nor the Hawks win the cup without doughty or Keith. At the very least their chances are VASTLY diminished


Last years playoffs Keith had one of the most dominant performances by a defender in the playoffs I've seen since pronger in 06

Couldn't the same be said about anyone not born in an elite hockey nation or on an elite nhl team ?


Plus, it's as if you're downplaying his contribution cause he happens to play on a great team. More specifically, He's one of the reasons that team is so great. Even arguably the biggest reason

Also, when teams make better draft picks of guys like Drew doughty, those are generally building block moves to making s better team. It's not just the high pick, it's that he's actually a superstar.
So your assertion about the Sabres is nothing more then supposition. Quite plausibly the Sabres are much better over the last while and even have the ability to sign better free agents etc etc had they drafted drew doughty years ago
- HB77

Yes indeed, you could say that about anyone born in an elite hockey nation, or who plays on en elite team, that's why I said it. As for the other stuff, I am not downplaying his contribution, but I am asserting that it is definitely amplified by his circumstances.
Just curious based on your train of thought, if you also believe that Chris Osgood made the Red Wings look like a better team than they were, or did the Red Wings make him a better goalie than he was?

As good a chance !!?? Are you kidding ?

Neither the Kings nor the Hawks win the cup without doughty or Keith. At the very least their chances are VASTLY diminished


Last years playoffs Keith had one of the most dominant performances by a defender in the playoffs I've seen since pronger in 06
- HB77

Thanks for saying that,not trying to be a homer here, but that is 100% correct.Keith's performance in the playoffs last year was unbelievable. Chicago played 4 D all playoffs and if anyone thinks they would have won without Keith they weren't watching.

Yes indeed, you could say that about anyone born in an elite hockey nation, or who plays on en elite team, that's why I said it. As for the other stuff, I am not downplaying his contribution, but I am asserting that it is definitely amplified by his circumstances.
Just curious based on your train of thought, if you also believe that Chris Osgood made the Red Wings look like a better team than they were, or did the Red Wings make him a better goalie than he was?
- wilkobecks

this still doesn't make sense. Your penalizing guys for being born in Canada?? Is everyone that ever played on a good team just a product of that, but overrated individually? This is really your contention?

And let's not even get into the argument that just to get on the canadian squad one needs to be elite, so the whole Olympic medals thing is abit misleading. He's not just some shmoe that got lucky to play for a good team and won a medal. He was one of the go to guys on the best squad.

And You're not downplaying his contribution yet you're comparing osgoods for the wings to his with the Kings ?
These are facile arguments with little to no relevance to doughty and the Kings. It's as if you're implying they're along the same lines. But they're not


The bottom line where your argument falls flat is that he's not a bit player for a multiple champ. Or even a secondary player

He's the number 1 dman that plays big minutes and is the go to guy in all situations.
He may very well be the best player in the best team. Certainly in the conversation anyway.
Osgood would never be in that conversation for those cup winning teams

Essentially I hate your argument cause it's all just conjecture based on loose plausibility. But not any actual facts

You're not downplaying his contribution yet you're comparing osgoods for the wings to his with the Kings
These are facile arguments with little to no relevance to doughty and the Kings.


The bottom line where your argument falls flat is that he's not a bit player for a multiple champ. Or even a secondary player

He's the number 1 dman that plays big minutes and is the go to guy in all situations.
He may very well be the best player in the best team. Certainly in the conversation anyway.
Osgood would never be in that conversation for those cup winning teams
It's a weak counterpoint
- HB77

Best thing about this argument is that there is really never an end to it either way, and I give you kudos for sticking to your point, and I apologise for using analogies that seem to be confusing to you. I did not compare Doughty's talent level to Chris Osgood, but I was just trying to see if your refusal to admit that team quality circumstance can have both a positive and negative effect on a players perceived "value", as well as their legacy as a "winner", extended outside of this particular case

I would never wish ill on any player, but heaven forbid that Doughty gets injured for the entire playoffs, or Keith tries to decapitate someone and gets a 20 game suspension, I will happily take a friendly wager from you that ether of those teams could still win the Cup because they are so good without the aforementioned guys (who are both fantastic players, in case you take further offence to my perceived failure to acknowledge their greatness)

Best thing about this argument is that there is really never an end to it either way, and I give you kudos for sticking to your point, and I apologise for using analogies that seem to be confusing to you. I did not compare Doughty's talent level to Chris Osgood, but I was just trying to see if your refusal to admit that team quality circumstance can have both a positive and negative effect on a players perceived "value", as well as their legacy as a "winner", extended outside of this particular case

I would never wish ill on any player, but heaven forbid that Doughty gets injured for the entire playoffs, or Keith tries to decapitate someone and gets a 20 game suspension, I will happily take a friendly wager from you that ether of those teams could still win the Cup because they are so good without the aforementioned guys (who are both fantastic players, in case you take further offence to my perceived failure to acknowledge their greatness)
- wilkobecks

Oh they weren't confusing analogies. They were flat out facile and misleading

And yeah I can admit that circumstance can have a bearing on perception as soon as you admit that he's a huge part of said team circumstance.
It's like you want to use 'effect' as a retort, while totally ignoring 'cause'. It doesn't work this way.

Again, your argument is entirely based on loose plausibility without an ounce of fact to back it up. What we know is the Kings and the Hawks are great. And what we also know is that Keith and doughty are huge contributors to them being great. And in some cases maybe even the biggest contributors. What we also know is that great teams generally have great players on them. They aren't mutually exclusive of each other. They're directly correlated. And as obvious as that sounds, it seems you miss this much.

What u wanna bet or "think" might happen or what your "opinion" of the results without them is, is nothing more than guesswork . Which is essentially you're whole argument

this still doesn't make sense. Your penalizing guys for being born in Canada?? Is everyone that ever played on a good team just a product of that, but overrated individually? This is really your contention?

And let's not even get into the argument that just to get on the canadian squad one needs to be elite, so the whole Olympic medals thing is abit misleading. He's not just some shmoe that got lucky to play for a good team and won a medal. He was one of the go to guys on the best squad.

And You're not downplaying his contribution yet you're comparing osgoods for the wings to his with the Kings ?
These are facile arguments with little to no relevance to doughty and the Kings. It's as if you're implying they're along the same lines. But they're not

The bottom line where your argument falls flat is that he's not a bit player for a multiple champ. Or even a secondary player

He's the number 1 dman that plays big minutes and is the go to guy in all situations.
He may very well be the best player in the best team. Certainly in the conversation anyway.
Osgood would never be in that conversation for those cup winning teams

Essentially I hate your argument cause it's all just conjecture based on loose plausibility. But not any actual facts
- HB77

I am not penalizing anyone for anything, I am actually starting to wonder based on how riled up you are getting, whether you might actually be Drew Doughty...

The whole point of my original post was that there are two groups of people: 1) people who think Doughty should win the Norris this year because he is "due" and he is a "winner", and 2) those that can at least see the other side of the coin.

Lastly, you do know that this is a hypothetical argument right Drew? (As evidenced by your theory that a team like Buffalo could have won multiple Cups in recent years had they drafted Doughty) Saying that there are no facts to back up my statements is true, and is also the whole point.

Feels like we a lot of time has been wasted on this, but if you are into any other sports besides hockey, we could pick a new set of players and do this all offseason, until our favorite teams are back playing hockey again (I shouldn't feel bad for you, at least your will probably win the draft lottery again)

P.S. I've got to call it a night but this has been quite fun, but I will let you stew over this one: Losing Kopitar would be way more damaging to the Kings playoff run than losing Doughty would

I am not penalizing anyone for anything, I am actually starting to wonder based on how riled up you are getting, whether you might actually be Drew Doughty...

The whole point of my original post was that there are two groups of people: 1) people who think Doughty should win the Norris this year because he is "due" and he is a "winner", and 2) those that can at least see the other side of the coin.

Lastly, you do know that this is a hypothetical argument right Drew? (As evidenced by your theory that a team like Buffalo could have won multiple Cups in recent years had they drafted Doughty) Saying that there are no facts to back up my statements is true, and is also the whole point.

Feels like we a lot of time has been wasted on this, but if you are into any other sports besides hockey, we could pick a new set of players and do this all offseason, until our favorite teams are back playing hockey again (I shouldn't feel bad for you, at least your will probably win the draft lottery again)
- wilkobecks

I never said doughty unequivocally deserved the Norris in any post I made at any point. And attempting to use rational here is kinda funny as youre the only one with a dog in the fight here for Norris, not the other way around...


I said Buffalo would win multiple cups had they drafted doughty? When?..where?? Quote ?

And then the finish with an oilers draft mention


As unlikely as it seemed, Your posts have somehow gotten worse ...

No one I know that cares about hockey beyond casual interest thinks the NHL has a problem with there not being enough scoring. The theory that higher scoring games will attract more interest or fans in the NHL does not seem to have any data driven justification. Once one sees the fallacy in this argument, all of the ancillary things you suggest to aid higher scoring are irrelevant.

Secondly, teams like Ottawa and Phoenix have issues not because of coaching or GMs. The issue is not being markets their owners can or will spend to the cap to be competitive. Just ask yourself where both teams would be with another $7-10MM in payroll on the roster. Tippet is a great coach and Murray has been a very good GM. Both are handicapped by their markets' ability to spend on talent.

Watch a Hawks game once in a while. Hard to make an argument for more hooking, clutching and grabbing.

As for the speed in the game - I do think it increases injury risk, but it might also be a big reason why the officiating is so terrible, and getting worse.

Plus Minus is a pretty stupid stat. His Minus 2 is more than likely a plus if you remove empty net goals, but it's still a dumb stat for all sorts of other reasons, mostly because what his goalie does isn't related to him at all. (His goalie has a low S% when he's on the ice, and that is pretty random).

Furthermore, his possession is better than all those other guys - relative to his team.

Karlsson is so good that you could take 20 points off his total and he still deserves the Norris.
- James_Tanner

So the Sens have zero empty netters this year?

I agree that +/- isnt the best stat to review a player, its more of a team stat. But every player is a part of that team. And when you say that EK makes Ottawa the best team in hockey when he is on the ice, they should not be -2.

EK is a fantastic player, but hes precense isnt as impactful as you are trying to sell.

Don't understand why plus minus ratings get such a bad rap. Look at the all time leaders , Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Ray Bouquet, Wayne Gretzky Bobby Clarke ect all pretty good players don'tyou think. I know I know played on good teams.........good teams cause they had great players like them. Yes you have to take it in context ie your team overall is minus 24 and you have a plus 10 your probably having a pretty good season.

Don't understand why plus minus ratings get such a bad rap. Look at the all time leaders , Larry Robinson, Bobby Orr, Ray Bouquet, Wayne Gretzky Bobby Clarke ect all pretty good players don'tyou think. I know I know played on good teams.........good teams cause they had great players like them. Yes you have to take it in context ie your team overall is minus 24 and you have a plus 10 your probably having a pretty good season.
- HamiltonHawk

Then look it up.

Then look it up.
- James_Tanner

Sorry not sure what you mean? Look up what?

Fired

http://www.tsn.ca/coyotes...-manager-maloney-1.469445

Fired

http://www.tsn.ca/coyotes...-manager-maloney-1.469445
- LeftCoaster

they need to get loiselle out of there too.

Sorry not sure what you mean? Look up what?
- HamiltonHawk

He wants you to go read how much of a useless stat plus/minus is.

Even though it shows how much you're on the ice for 5v5 goals.

They really need a stat guy at every game giving out real +/-, these guys getting credit for some assists because they touched the puck is ridiculous and then getting a pass when they are on the ice for every goal that goes in because ( it wasnt his fault)
*sarcasm*

and obviously Corsi is far from being a talent evaluator....Corsi makes the best D on the poor teams look like ECHL talent.