Jason Lewis: Is There a Better One-Two in the NHL than Drew Doughty and Jake Muzzin?

Jason Lewis: Is There a Better One-Two in the NHL than Drew Doughty and Jake Muzzin?
- Jason_Lewis

Weber & Josi ......

Seabrook & Keith ......

It's almost to the point where you could talk about Hjalmarsson being in the top 2 for the Hawks.

Nashville's top four of Weber, Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm is pretty scary. I'd take Doughty over any other defenseman in the NHL, but I think I like Nashville's top four better.

Chicago is pretty close with Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson, but there's a pretty substantial drop-off after that 3rd guy. I'd take the Kings top four over Chicago's.

Jason Lewis: Is There a Better One-Two in the NHL than Drew Doughty and Jake Muzzin?
- Jason_Lewis

Gio & Brody

Doughty and Muzzin are excellent players but the King's style of play also helps a lot, I think it is really hard to view any kings players in a vacuum.

The other D groups not mentioned who don't get a lot of love but are very solid as well is Carlson, Niskanen, Alzner, Orpik/Orlov.
And
Suter, Spurgeon, Brodin, Scandella.

Carlson's injury has derailed his stats this season but he was legitimately elite.
Sutter also has put up a quietly impressive season as well and IMO that is because of his running mates.

Nashville's top four of Weber, Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm is pretty scary. I'd take Doughty over any other defenseman in the NHL, but I think I like Nashville's top four better.

Chicago is pretty close with Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson, but there's a pretty substantial drop-off after that 3rd guy. I'd take the Kings top four over Chicago's.
- tkecanuck341

Absolutely.Right on the money !

The dynamic duo of allowing shots and goals!? come on now.
Hint: the best defensive pairs are on playoff teams.
edit: this was meant in response to the Gio/Brodie post and it didnt quote properly.

It's almost to the point where you could talk about Hjalmarsson being in the top 2 for the Hawks.
- MaxTLimit

Agreed. Hammer has come a long long way. Great D


Also agree with the top 4 of Nashville. Ellis and Ekholm are very good.
Jackman an excellent 5-6. Also do like Minnesota's quite a bit.

Nashville's top four of Weber, Josi, Ellis, and Ekholm is pretty scary. I'd take Doughty over any other defenseman in the NHL, but I think I like Nashville's top four better.

Chicago is pretty close with Keith, Seabrook and Hjalmarsson, but there's a pretty substantial drop-off after that 3rd guy. I'd take the Kings top four over Chicago's.
- tkecanuck341

this is accurate, I also think Belcher giving some love to washington's top-4 is legit too. Those are the top3, with minny probably 4th and Tampa 5th. Hedman Stralman I think is a decent comparable to any top 2, but they are not as good as doughty/muzzin. Close though I'd say.

Schultz and Nikitin

Doughty > Keith but Seabrook >>> Muzzin

Also think that Weber and Josi is a better duo. But Doughty and Muzzin is still very very good.

Doughty > Keith but Seabrook >>> Muzzin

Also think that Weber and Josi is a better duo. But Doughty and Muzzin is still very very good.
- 6ringslowe

I do think Seabrook has a leg up on Muzzin, but I don't think it's as drastic as you claim.

I do think Seabrook has a leg up on Muzzin, but I don't think it's as drastic as you claim.
- tkecanuck341

definitely not 3 greater-thans!!

Jason Lewis: Is There a Better One-Two in the NHL than Drew Doughty and Jake Muzzin?
- Jason_Lewis

yes

Agreed. Hammer has come a long long way. Great D

Hammer's been there, he just usually played on a the second line for so long with an ever changing cast of charcters after Oduya.

Doughty's a beast, the best in the NHL. Love my Seabs and Keith, but Doughty embodies the best of the both of them.

Hammer's been there, he just usually played on a the second line for so long with an ever changing cast of charcters after Oduya.

Doughty's a beast, the best in the NHL. Love my Seabs and Keith, but Doughty embodies the best of the both of them.
- howiehandles

... so basically, this year

It really isn't difficult to name better. Nashville is one team with a better 1-2 and a better top-4 than LA. I'm sorry, but it's wrong to say that Weber/Josi is "a bit questionable perhaps" as even being an elite pairing. That is, by far, IMO, the best pairing or "one-two punch" in the league. Doughty is a bit better than Weber, but Josi is head and shoulders better than Muzzin. It's not even close. Josi is actually quite a bit closer to being on Doughty's level than he is Muzzin's level.

There isn't anything elite about Muzzin. Much of the reason why people make the mistake of thinking that he is is because they're Corsi watching and see him 3rd in the league. Dustin Brown and Nick Shore are 10th and 11th in the league in Corsi, yet that doesn't make them elite forwards. Also, Muzzin's Corsi did drop considerably from last season (from 9 less than Doughty in 14-15 to 115 less than Doughty in 15-16, not to mention from a Rel% of 3.5 to 1.9), so saying that playing with Doughty didn't inflate his numbers is incorrect. In addition, Doughty's numbers have gone up considerably since being separated from Muzzin (from 410 SAT and 2.0 Rel% to 481 and 4.4 Rel%). If you argue that it's not the separation, but the team's better regular season, that is behind Doughty's improvement, then that only makes Muzzin's drop, despite being on the same better team, even more noteworthy.

When you actually watch Muzzin closely, you see a player who has offensive and puck-moving skills, but low hockey IQ and little mind for defense. He routinely pinches when no one's covering for him, attempts to exit the zone without the puck (because he's so eager to go on offense), turns the puck over (even egregiously), is slow to get back on defense, gets turned inside out (often reacting by hauling the player down for a penalty) and chases the puck in the defensive zone. Other Kings defensemen commit some of the same things, but that's rather the point. If he were elite, he wouldn't look as bad as any of the others as often as he does.

He's committed every single one of the just-mentioned misplays in just the last couple of games, but you would've had to notice them, yourself, since no attention is paid to such things because the faithful who cover them, like Jim Fox and (I'm sorry, but) this blog, only ever highlight Muzzin's good plays. The bad plays never get highlight packages or GIFs made from them. They get swept under the rug or have excuses made for them (it's always some other player's fault). In fact, once, when Muzzin was overly aggressive, missed his man completely and allowed a 3-on-1 against, Jim Fox said "you can't fault him." It's stuff like that that Muzzin routinely gets excused for (while other players get called out) because, I believe, some want to believe that they have two elite defensemen and that the d-corps isn't carried as much by Doughty as others would accuse.

It really isn't difficult to name better. Nashville is one team with a better 1-2 and a better top-4 than LA. I'm sorry, but it's wrong to say that Weber/Josi is "a bit questionable perhaps" as even being an elite pairing. That is, by far, IMO, the best pairing or "one-two punch" in the league. Doughty is a bit better than Weber, but Josi is head and shoulders better than Muzzin. It's not even close. Josi is actually quite a bit closer to being on Doughty's level than he is Muzzin's level.

There isn't anything elite about Muzzin. Much of the reason why people make the mistake of thinking that he is is because they're Corsi watching and see him 3rd in the league. Dustin Brown and Nick Shore are 10th and 11th in the league in Corsi, yet that doesn't make them elite forwards. Also, Muzzin's Corsi did drop considerably from last season (from 9 less than Doughty in 14-15 to 115 less than Doughty in 15-16, not to mention from a Rel% of 3.5 to 1.9), so saying that playing with Doughty didn't inflate his numbers is incorrect. In addition, Doughty's numbers have gone up considerably since being separated from Muzzin (from 410 SAT and 2.0 Rel% to 481 and 4.4 Rel%). If you argue that it's not the separation, but the team's better regular season, that is behind Doughty's improvement, then that only makes Muzzin's drop, despite being on the same better team, even more noteworthy.

When you actually watch Muzzin closely, you see a player who has offensive and puck-moving skills, but low hockey IQ and little mind for defense. He routinely pinches when no one's covering for him, attempts to exit the zone without the puck (because he's so eager to go on offense), turns the puck over (even egregiously), is slow to get back on defense, gets turned inside out (often reacting by hauling the player down for a penalty) and chases the puck in the defensive zone. Other Kings defensemen commit some of the same things, but that's rather the point. If he were elite, he wouldn't look as bad as any of the others as often as he does.

He's committed every single one of the just-mentioned misplays in just the last couple of games, but you would've had to notice them, yourself, since no attention is paid to such things because the faithful who cover them, like Jim Fox and (I'm sorry, but) this blog, only ever highlights Muzzin's good plays. The bad plays never get highlight packages or GIFs made from them. They get swept under the rug or have excuses made for them (it's always some other player's fault). In fact, once, when Muzzin was overly aggressive, missed his man completely and allowed a 3-on-1 against, Jim Fox said "you can't fault him." It's stuff like that that Muzzin routinely gets excused for (while other players get called out) because, I believe, some want to believe that they have two elite defensemen and that the d-corps isn't carried as much by Doughty as others would accuse.
- Osprey

I, for one, am totally surprised at you writing a long response about how bad Muzzin is. This is completely out of the blue for you.

I, for one, am totally surprised at you writing a long response about how bad Muzzin is. This is completely out of the blue for you.
- Jason_Lewis

It's just as out of the blue as you writing an even longer piece about how great he is. That is so unlike you.

Jokes aside, if you're going to make arguments like this, you have to expect counter arguments. That's all. Personally, I believe that you shouldn't make an argument unless you're willing to defend it. If you don't want to defend your argument, that's your prerogative, but it would suggest that the blog is more of a soapbox than a discussion starter, and I would hope that it's the latter.

It is just as out of the blue as you writing an even longer piece about how great he is. That is so unlike you.

Jokes aside, if you're going to make arguments like this, you have to expect counter arguments. That's all. Don't take it personally or put down people for arguing back or you're just treating your platform more as a soapbox, which you don't, I hope.
- Osprey

I had some long response worked out, but It's not even worth responding at this point. Different folks different strokes. Muzzin is a very good hockey player. End of story.

Martinez > Muzzin

I had some long response worked out, but It's not even worth responding at this point. Different folks different strokes. Muzzin is a very good hockey player. End of story.
- Jason_Lewis

I had a response worked out, but you just said "end of story," so I guess that the issue is settled because you have spoken. I suppose that that's how we're different. I freely subject my opinions to the scrutiny of others to (hopefully) strengthen my confidence in them by seeing what stands up against their counter arguments, while you convince yourself of your standing by simply declaring things like "end of story." Different strokes for different folks, as you said.

Martinez > Muzzin
- sjsharksss

I've often considered the same thing. I'm not completely wild about Martinez, but I do like his game better.

I had a response worked out, but you just said "end of story," so I guess that the issue is settled because you have spoken. I suppose that that's how we're different. I freely subject my opinions to the scrutiny of others to (hopefully) strengthen my confidence in them by seeing what stands up against their counter arguments, while you convince yourself of your standing by simply declaring things like "end of story." Different strokes for different folks, as you said.



I've often considered the same thing. I'm not completely wild about Martinez, but I do like his game better.
- Osprey

Yes. End of story. Muzzin gets 40+ points. Plays 22+ minutes. Is a possession monster. Plays all three zones. Plays all situations.

He is a good defenseman. End of story.

I had a response worked out, but you just said "end of story," so I guess that the issue is settled because you have spoken. I suppose that that's how we're different. I freely subject my opinions to the scrutiny of others to (hopefully) strengthen my confidence in them by seeing what stands up against their counter arguments, while you convince yourself of your standing by simply declaring things like "end of story." Different strokes for different folks, as you said.



I've often considered the same thing. I'm not completely wild about Martinez, but I do like his game better.
- Osprey

The history of your posts since you made a splash on the scene with your infamous "Lewis is Biased in his Data Gathering of Zone Exits" post shows that this is completely false. You make statements without a basis and then write "prove me wrong". You believe in empiricism when it suits you, and faith when it doesn't. You are intellectually dishonest and, based on the foregoing, diluted. I gave you credit, though: you didn't credit the Kings' system in your posts today for Muzzin's performance.