Any team in the NHL would luv PK or Karlsson.
Teams insulate those type of D properly.
Those 2 of D r rare n don't grow on trees.
- Nighthawk

There's no doubt about that, but I think teams that already have great defense would deploy them much differently. Think of Karlsson on LA. A lot of offensive zone starts and pp time, not much of the opposite (because he's clearly not good at defending). He's top 4 on that team, not top-2. I agree we are better defensively than a lot of teams that are out and could use the scoring (from pretty much anywhere) at this point. Defense wins championships, scoring wins regular season trophies.

There's no doubt about that, but I think teams that already have great defense would deploy them much differently. Think of Karlsson on LA. A lot of offensive zone starts and pp time, not much of the opposite (because he's clearly not good at defending). He's top 4 on that team, not top-2. I agree we are better defensively than a lot of teams that are out and could use the scoring (from pretty much anywhere) at this point. Defense wins championships, scoring wins regular season trophies.
- neem55

Either PK or Karlsson in LA with their D talent would be a dynasty for years.
When its shutdown time its Doughty n Muzzin n others doing it.

The gaffs both PK n Karlsson make can be fixed. Niedermeyer was great but made his share of mistakes but he could recover n erase them. Problem with both PK n Karlsson is they r both so prominent on teams that r not deep in talent. They adjust or get surrounded better or not much changes.

Eg as BHutt rounds out his game he will continue to rise to great heights.
The kid is something special already for a 5th rounder. JB can continue finding
the D pairings that will work as in tandems.
Eg Tanev with BHutt or Edler/Larsen or Tree/Subban etc

I could care less what genre of music JV is into. I just went to see Heart and Joan Jett last week and was more than impressed. Singing along to Hearts love ballads of the 80's didn't make me feel less manly. Ordering a coors light at the pub afterwards sure did though.
- Itsjustarash

Actually the music that people listen to say a lot about them as individuals. The fact that JV listens to Beiber and seemingly enjoys it is a problem.

Actually the music that people listen to say a lot about them as individuals. The fact that JV listens to Beiber and seemingly enjoys it is a problem.


- LordHumungous

Send him AC/DC tics n problem solved 😂😂

is it really?! I think it's pretty hard to get them IMO. They keep getting Subban/Karlsson to try to learn how to defend and it's not working even though they score like crazy. It seems pretty hard to get effective defenders at the NHL level. None of our young guys look to good at it, I wish they did. I think they could be coached better but i also just think that it's much harder job than you and many others seem to give credit for.
- neem55

I think youre exaggerating the defensive liability of both players greatly. PK was knocked by team Canada as being too risky, he goes big on certain plays that can prove costly, not that he cant play defense in his own zone or at a normal amount. Karlson in his first Norris season wasnt great because he isnt as physically strong as most defenders but everyone agrees now his positioning is excellent in the same way Lidstrom was.

Guys are labelled one thing and can never break it, like Crosby the whiner, OV never backchecks, and Luongo cant win big games

The gaffs both PK n Karlsson make can be fixed. Niedermeyer was great but made his share of mistakes but he could recover n erase them. Problem with both PK n Karlsson is they r both so prominent on teams that r not deep in talent. They adjust or get surrounded better or not much changes.

Eg as BHutt rounds out hus game he will continue to rise to great heights.
The kid is something special already for a 5th rounder. JB can continue finding
the D pairings that will work as in tandems. Eg Tanev with BHutt n Edler/Larsen
- Nighthawk

Some players can't get better than they are at defending. Has Karlsson improved? Why will he get better? Niedemeyer I couldn't agree less about, his positional play/use of stick was elite on a level that neither of those players have ever shown. It's not about occasional gaffs, it's about consistently being in position and making smart plays with and without the puck. Will Hutton reach that consistency/level of play? Maybe.Could go either way but he does have a legitimate shot.

I think youre exaggerating the defensive liability of both players greatly. PK was knocked by team Canada as being too risky, he goes big on certain plays that can prove costly, not that he cant play defense in his own zone or at a normal amount. Karlson in his first Norris season wasnt great because he isnt as physically strong as most defenders but everyone agrees now his positioning is excellent in the same way Lidstrom was.

Guys are labelled one thing and can never break it, like Crosby the whiner, OV never backchecks, and Luongo cant win big games
- WhiteLie

Have a look at Karllson's numbers in the d-zone, he's pretty far from lidstrom who was pretty elite positional d. The everyone agrees part is just false, last ottawa game I watched was the debate on whether Karlsson will ever be able to defend at an elite level.

Have a look at Karllson's numbers in the d-zone, he's pretty far from lidstrom who was pretty elite positional d. The everyone agrees part is just false, last ottawa game I watched was the debate on whether Karlsson will ever be able to defend at an elite level.
- neem55

I agree he isnt a Pronger or shut down kind of guy, but to say hes a defensive liability is exaggerated. Even Lidstrom was criticized for his defensive play, so I am not surprised Karlsson gets the same treatment. Bottom line is he plays a ton of minutes against all types of competition and still keeps the puck out of his net more often than not

https://www.nhl.com/news/...or-norris-trophy/c-793148

Have a look at Karllson's numbers in the d-zone, he's pretty far from lidstrom who was pretty elite positional d. The everyone agrees part is just false, last ottawa game I watched was the debate on whether Karlsson will ever be able to defend at an elite level.
- neem55

Apples n Oranges....
Lidstrom could lay back more n was a great D man.
Karlsson does not have Datsyuk Zetterberg or Stevie Y etc up front.

A better comparison is Coffey n Karlsson.
Coffey was never any good on D but was an awesome force on O.
Still a HOFer as will be Karlsson.

Only D that had it all was the greatest of all time Bobby Orr.

Send him AC/DC tics n problem solved 😂😂
- Nighthawk

You guys are funny. Karlsson would be imo the best defender since Lidstrom.

Going off topic...

Orr the greatest player ever.
Made everyone better n changed hockey forever.
No D man has ever done what he did nor led them as he did.

Gretzky/Lemieux r next but very close.
Both could drag a team on their backs but needed a lil help.

Bossy the greatest pure sniper with Hull n OV on his tail.

Pronger the greatest shutdown dominator with Lidstrom.

Hasek n Esposito the best in goal.

I agree he isnt a Pronger or shut down kind of guy, but to say hes a defensive liability is exaggerated. Even Lidstrom was criticized for his defensive play, so I am not surprised Karlsson gets the same treatment. Bottom line is he plays a ton of minutes against all types of competition and still keeps the puck out of his net more often than not

https://www.nhl.com/news/...or-norris-trophy/c-793148
- WhiteLie

EDIT: Heres another one from midseason last year, focus on how well his stats indicate his defending on zone entries. The breakdown will summarize it nicely that yes he will take risks and get caught on occasion, but he is fast enough to cover those mistakes so they dont get burned
http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/581116

You guys are funny. Karlsson would be imo the best defender since Lidstrom.
- thundachunk

In the discussion yes but fellas named Keith n Doughty r around 😂😂

In the discussion yes but fellas named Keith n Doughty r around 😂😂
- Nighthawk

and Hedman, Weber, Suter. Maybe Carlson too.

Going off topic...

Orr the greatest player ever.
Made everyone better n changed hockey forever.
No D man has ever done what he did nor led them as he did.

Gretzky/Lemieux r next but very close.
Both could drag a team on their backs but needed a lil help.

Bossy the greatest pure sniper with Hull n OV on his tail.

Pronger the greatest shutdown dominator with Lidstrom.

Hasek n Esposito the best in goal.
- Nighthawk

Orr revolutionized the position, cant argue that, had a massive impact on the way the game is played. Probably more than any other player that played, but greatest ever I think is debatable. IMO he played in one of the pooptiest eras in NHL history, missed out on the dominance of the Canadiens in the 50s and stopped before the Canadiens, Islanders and Oilers dynasties came along, even the Leafs won a cup during his playing days...

EDIT: Heres another one from midseason last year, focus on how well his stats indicate his defending on zone entries. The breakdown will summarize it nicely that yes he will take risks and get caught on occasion, but he is fast enough to cover those mistakes so they dont get burned
http://www.thescore.com/nhl/news/581116
- WhiteLie

I see a couple of articles that point towards him being an amazing possesion and offensive player. I noticed your not relying on stats that show the amount of shots adjusted, or quality of a shots allowed as he allows a lot of both. With the puck amazing. without it, average.

Orr revolutionized the position, cant argue that, had a massive impact on the way the game is played. Probably more than any other player that played, but greatest ever I think is debatable. IMO he played in one of the pooptiest eras in NHL history, missed out on the dominance of the Canadiens in the 50s and stopped before the Canadiens, Islanders and Oilers dynasties came along, even the Leafs won a cup during his playing days...
- WhiteLie

I've made this argument and it was not well recieved, I agree with it though. I also agree with the above comment that coffey/karlsson are very similar. Different era's. You have to be more complete player to win cups now. We will see how many Karlsson leads Ottawa to. He surely could have better defensive guys around him, but he's the leader and that affects everyone else's play. This is why I always thought Kesler should have got the "C", Love hank but defense>offense for me (toews>kane)(Doughty and at least 5 others>Karlsson/Subban).

I am thinking margarita monday? For the children.

I see a couple of articles that point towards him being an amazing possesion and offensive player. I noticed your not relying on stats that show the amount of shots adjusted, or quality of a shots allowed as he allows a lot of both. With the puck amazing. without it, average.
- neem55

Thats the point I was making though, he isnt a liability. I think I referenced someone's opinion who exaggerated his positioning, but he is an above average defender. Without the puck, zone entries he defends well above league average according to that article from the Score. The stats youre looking for I dont think paint the entire picture, his shots against per 60 is right in the same area as Shea Weber, Peitrangelo, and a few other notables. He is better than he once was and I wouldnt hesitate to have him out there in the last few minutes with a lead unless I had another allstar on my bench

Orr revolutionized the position, cant argue that, had a massive impact on the way the game is played. Probably more than any other player that played, but greatest ever I think is debatable. IMO he played in one of the pooptiest eras in NHL history, missed out on the dominance of the Canadiens in the 50s and stopped before the Canadiens, Islanders and Oilers dynasties came along, even the Leafs won a cup during his playing days...
- WhiteLie

Well when 4 outta 6 teams make the playoffs yes.
When only win 2 rounds yes.

As for debatable maybe but no D has won the scoring race since nor posted a +/- like he did nor made the the entire team better. Esposito n all others were be eficiaries of Orr n made Cherry who he is he is if u even like Grapes.

Gretzky came along after n changed hockey like only he could.

That all said no player did it all like Orr did.
Who can name any flaw or wekness in his his game?

I am thinking margarita monday? For the children.
- thundachunk

Good call. On the rocks, not blended.

I've made this argument and it was not well recieved, I agree with it though. I also agree with the above comment that coffey/karlsson are very similar. Different era's. You have to be more complete player to win cups now. We will see how many Karlsson leads Ottawa to. He surely could have better defensive guys around him, but he's the leader and that affects everyone else's play. This is why I always thought Kesler should have got the "C", Love hank but defense>offense for me (toews>kane)(Doughty and at least 5 others>Karlsson/Subban).
- neem55

I know there are many that love Orr. I think he was great but for the short time he played, it wasnt the best era of hockey, so to say he was best ever is a struggle for me when its more challenging to think of anyone else from that time period that could be in a discussion for best ever. Gretzky had to go up against, Roy/Brodeur two of the best goalies of all time for a large chunk of his career (though most of his damage was done prior), had to go up against Mario, Jagr, faced Messier, Hull guys that were sure thing HOF players in the middle of their careers, and while the defensemen werent the best, the competition was at least much greater and he rose to the top of them all. Today's NHL has Crosby, OV, Toews, up front, Weber, Keith, Doughty on defense and many great goalies. Competition-wise its not even close and these guys can all dominate