trade deadline passed.....gonna have to wait for an injury or pick up NA goalies
- SMP8719

Is the deadline here the same as the actual deadline? If so I wasnt aware.

Is the deadline here the same as the actual deadline? If so I wasnt aware.
- vancity787

Thought fantasy worked a little differently. my bad.

I will never just look at a players corsi or fenwick to decide how I rate them ...I will watch them play and see how they contribute ... But go ahead and play around with your fancy stats to tell you who is good
- Redmile247

Hahaha that's pretty funny considering how much of Hamilton's advanced stats ( or fancy if you prefer) apparently went into Treliving and co.'s decision to pull the trigger. There's a lot of things that go into judging a player and only one of those things is stats, there's no doubt about that. but there is also no denying that they do help assess players, which is why teams pay to have advanced stats done at the CHL/NCAA level. I love the old school dismissal of new things though, very novel.

The pool is dead in a month....I don't think there's much interest to continue next year?
- LeftCoaster

we could burn a few teams get a new commish....or start a new one

Please don't use philosophy jargon on a hockey message board, unfalsifiability is a double negative and not used in any philosophy paper I've read in 8 years of university. His season only looks bad when you fail to acknowledge the irrelevance of +/- as a stat. Do you believe the world if flat? I'm guessing not, that's the kind of knowledge that gets left behind when you realize it's useless and incorrect (and so is +/-).
Horvat is playing against the number 1 line yet again tonight, as he does every night. When you look at the shot differentials and account for the quality of competition he faces night after night, his stats are not that bad.

Why on earth would we want Burrows back? You poop on Bo and then say something like that?!
- neem55

+/- isn't an irrelevant stat at all - no serious GM, or analytics guy would ever say something so ridiculous - it's not perfect, but its a good indication of a players defensive game. GA per 60 minutes is better, and Bo is one of the worst in the league at that as well - bottom 10 in the league.

Have you seen his shot differentials? I don't think you have. He's 810/840 players in SAT and USAT - bottom 95%. Haven't checked his quality of competition stats. How would one do that?

Burrows: I'm loyal. He made $2 mil a year scoring 35 goals. If we don't need the cap space, keep him on the fourth line - not the worst player in the league or on the team) and a great locker room guy.

POINT!


Edit: Make it two

Shinkaruk who?

Hahaha that's pretty funny considering how much of Hamilton's advanced stats ( or fancy if you prefer) apparently went into Treliving and co.'s decision to pull the trigger. There's a lot of things that go into judging a player and only one of those things is stats, there's no doubt about that. but there is also no denying that they do help assess players, which is why teams pay to have advanced stats done at the CHL/NCAA level. I love the old school dismissal of new things though, very novel.
- neem55

I'm not dismissing advanced stats ...but you seem to be using them as your whole arguement ...much like most of the pro advanced stats nuts out there ...it's a part or a piece that you can look at as a tool....not the whole picture

Canucks win Nice speed shown by the kids on that rush nonetheless.

+/- isn't an irrelevant stat at all - no serious GM, or analytics guy would ever say something so ridiculous - it's not perfect, but its a good indication of a players defensive game. GA per 60 minutes is better, and Bo is one of the worst in the league at that as well - bottom 10 in the league.

Have you seen his shot differentials? I don't think you have. He's 810/840 players in SAT and USAT - bottom 95%. Haven't checked his quality of competition stats. How would one do that?

Burrows: I'm loyal. He made $2 mil a year scoring 35 goals. If we don't need the cap space, keep him on the fourth line - not the worst player in the league or on the team) and a great locker room guy.
- Ronning4ever

It's usually referred to as "corsi relative" they don't use them on NHL.com cause they are cheap(don't want to pay the inventors of the algorithms) try war-on-ice. Of course he's outshot, he starts the majority of his shifts in the d-zone against the best players in the game. I'm sorry you haven't heard that +/- is largely considered irrelevant among hockey analysts but it is (sorry, that's just a fact I'm guessing you haven't heard that, but it is true). I'm honestly not trying to be a Richard about this, but if you're going to cite stats +/- is just not informative. I shared a story that captures why that is the case in the last blog, but for starters: it doesn't take in to account time on ice, competition, Empty net situations or defensive zone starts. The point is, you need to look at lots of different things to get a statistical perspective. Turnover rates, FO%, zone starts, Corsi, fenwick, possession, level of competition. These things are all important to judging a player.

POINT!
- As_I_See_It

You don't know it yet but you've already been flagged a half dozen times. That's how we say hello to outsiders.

The pool is dead in a month....I don't think there's much interest to continue next year?
- LeftCoaster

Not really.

Not really.
- Marwood

So Im officially going down as the worst pooler ever? Thanks guys

I'm not dismissing advanced stats ...but you seem to be using them as your whole arguement ...much like most of the pro advanced stats nuts out there ...it's a part or a piece that you can look at as a tool....not the whole picture
- Redmile247

Without a doubt. For me, it is one of the things I use to judge what separates the elite guys from the good, I guess that's my justification here. Durability has always been my issue with Gio, this year he's been very good offensively and ok defensively IMO he's not getting younger. I'm sure there's lots of leadership/on ice stuff I don't see that you do, which is fair. But I watch a fair amount of hockey, for my money the best d-man in the game is Doughty and his advanced stats back up that argument. I also consider Hedman in the same category of elite for the same reason, while not Karlsson, Gio or Subban. Each of them is better than our best d-man, I'm simply saying. IMO Gio/Brodie are both much better than any Canucks D, but that's probably not news to you.

You don't know it yet but you've already been flagged a half dozen times. That's how we say hello to outsiders.
- CubanBuffet

Flagged for?

Even that's true, I'm sure the mods are loving the amount of times wolf is cried in here.

*howls*

POINT!


Edit: Make it two
- As_I_See_It

We were so close to a top-5 pick

Flagged for?

Even that's true, I'm sure the mods are loving the amount of times wolf is cried in here.

*howls*
- As_I_See_It

Don't know what for. Something egregious I'm sure.

+/- isn't an irrelevant stat at all - no serious GM, or analytics guy would ever say something so ridiculous - it's not perfect, but its a good indication of a players defensive game. GA per 60 minutes is better, and Bo is one of the worst in the league at that as well - bottom 10 in the league.

Have you seen his shot differentials? I don't think you have. He's 810/840 players in SAT and USAT - bottom 95%. Haven't checked his quality of competition stats. How would one do that?

Burrows: I'm loyal. He made $2 mil a year scoring 35 goals. If we don't need the cap space, keep him on the fourth line - not the worst player in the league or on the team) and a great locker room guy.
- Ronning4ever

Id say its more to do with his line mates then bo himself. If he played with burrows and hansen instead of sven and vrbata he would not be minus 30. Vrbata should be waived he plays with absolutely zero defensive committment.

I just finished watching it, good stuff! Virtanen with the heavy shot and Granlund with the winner. Kids!

POINT!


Edit: Make it two
- As_I_See_It

but they looked good doin it

It's usually referred to as "corsi relative" they don't use them on NHL.com cause they are cheap(don't want to pay the inventors of the algorithms) try war-on-ice. Of course he's outshot, he starts the majority of his shifts in the d-zone against the best players in the game. I'm sorry you haven't heard that +/- is largely considered irrelevant among hockey analysts but it is (sorry, that's just a fact I'm guessing you haven't heard that, but it is true). I'm honestly not trying to be a Richard about this, but if you're going to cite stats +/- is just not informative. I shared a story that captures why that is the case in the last blog, but for starters: it doesn't take in to account time on ice, competition, Empty net situations or defensive zone starts. The point is, you need to look at lots of different things to get a statistical perspective. Turnover rates, FO%, zone starts, Corsi, fenwick, possession, level of competition. These things are all important to judging a player.
- neem55

Sigh. I read that story. As I mentioned after reading it, it had 3 conclusions: the first one was problematic, but a valid point. The other two were just straight up bad stats analysis - they actually SHOWED why +/- is useful, not the opposite. I'm not sure how much you've dipped into stats analysis (I haven't gone too far down the rabbit hole myself) but in my experience, far from being 'just a fact' - there's no serious stats writer that would say +/- is irrelevant - it's just not the sole thing to look at.

I'll check out Bo's Corsi-relative. But seriously I did check out his corsi, fenwick, GA per 60, GA when leading by one, etc. all on waronice. He's in the bottom 95% of the league. I won't awaken the HB kraken with the D word, but he's had a bad, bad season. I recognize his competition has been tougher, but the stats are pretty clear - he's getting destroyed (not just outplayed) defensively, which is not what you'd want to see from a top two-way prospect, especially when you traded a Vezina level goalie for him.

but they looked good doin it
- LeftCoaster

Yup, down 2-0 as well.

Id say its more to do with his line mates then bo himself. If he played with burrows and hansen instead of sven and vrbata he would not be minus 30. Vrbata should be waived he plays with absolutely zero defensive committment.
- mauryballstein

I dug down deep 'hoping' to find this. The problem is, the data just doesn't back this up. The announcers were saying it pretty clearly tonight: get him off the top lines. You don't expect to see a -30 season from a two-way forward prospect. He needs sheltered minutes to develop and get good. etc.

They also said, he's handled it really well - so it doesn't sound like his confidence was shot...and that there's no where to go but up!

+/- isn't an irrelevant stat at all - no serious GM, or analytics guy would ever say something so ridiculous - it's not perfect, but its a good indication of a players defensive game. GA per 60 minutes is better, and Bo is one of the worst in the league at that as well - bottom 10 in the league.

Have you seen his shot differentials? I don't think you have. He's 810/840 players in SAT and USAT - bottom 95%. Haven't checked his quality of competition stats. How would one do that?

Burrows: I'm loyal. He made $2 mil a year scoring 35 goals. If we don't need the cap space, keep him on the fourth line - not the worst player in the league or on the team) and a great locker room guy.
- Ronning4ever

What's more useless...your Bo sucks posts or +/-?

Now that could be a fantastic debate

What's more useless...your Bo sucks posts or +/-?

Now that could be a fantastic debate
- CanuckDon