Ok, but the Pens were constantly being run and no one stood up for their teammates (I can count on one hand the times the Pens stood up for each other vs. the 100+ times liberties were taken with no response). Again, it needs to be a team response. Either you have at least some players with that mentality or you don't. Currently, Kunitz is the only player that comes to mind and he seems pretty tame anymore. Maybe Plotnikov will be that player. I don't want Letang, Malkin, Crosby, etc. anywhere near the rough stuff.
- thevelvetfog1

Plotnikov will. That's his game. You don't just suddenly lose your edge in the Atlantic Ocean en rout from the KHL. Everything about him is an unknown but that shouldn't be. I still think at some point Sundqvist will stick with the big club.

Plotnikov will. That's his game. You don't just suddenly lose your edge in the Atlantic Ocean en rout from the KHL. Everything about him is an unknown but that shouldn't be. I still think at some point Sundqvist will stick with the big club.
- Victoro311

Well, hopefully Plotnikov and Sundqvist are NHL-caliber players (still highly questionable). As it is right now, though, the Pens are soff. Dey soff like I’ve never seen a bunch of players soff like dis.

Well, hopefully Plotnikov and Sundqvist are NHL-caliber players (still highly questionable). As it is right now, though, the Pens are soff. Dey soff like I’ve never seen a bunch of players soff like dis.
- thevelvetfog1

Last year's Chicago Cup team was pretty damn soff too. I wouldn't say they're much harder than ours is now.

Engelland was a turnover machine with Bylsma's system. He'd be even more of a disaster with Johnston. Prout's another bottom pairing plug.
- jfkst1

Neither fit in our system. I don't understand why people want bottom pairing guys who can't move the puck, like Scuderi. Those guys will only look worse here. I'd rather play Clendening.

I thought everyone was over the "grit" phase? Or have we not learned our lesson?

I don't think I'm as high on Lovejoy as you are but he is certainly a very good valued bottom pairing d man. Vanilla guy that's ok at everything. With sheltered bottom pairing minutes he provides good value for his contract even if he isn't a perfect fit in our system. You gotta separate the player from the trade that got him here.
- Victoro311

Lovejoy as the 5th dman who can be called upon to play in the top 4 in case of injuries isn't terrible. I'm worried about scuderi being the person to get moved up

Neither fit in our system. I don't understand why people want bottom pairing guys who can't move the puck, like Scuderi. Those guys will only look worse here. I'd rather play Clendening.

I thought everyone was over the "grit" phase? Or have we not learned our lesson?
- Pens_Burgh

It's perplexing the unwillingness to try a different direction when everyone's been female doging about underperformance and disappointment for years now.

My hope is that if we don't lose him to wavers Clendening can unhorse Lovejoy and be the bottom pairing RD. If he's gonna live up to his first round pedigree in any system it's going to be in ours.

It's perplexing the unwillingness to try a different direction when everyone's been female doging about underperformance and disappointment for years now.

My hope is that if we don't lose him to wavers Clendening can unhorse Lovejoy and be the bottom pairing RD. If he's gonna live up to his first round pedigree in any system it's going to be in ours.
- Victoro311

Agreed on everything. This is his absolute best shot at being an NHL defenseman. This system is tailored to his game and he'll have one of, if not the best forward group in front of him as well as MAF behind him. Hopefully he can mesh with whoever his partner would be if he gets called up or makes it out of camp.

Last year's Chicago Cup team was pretty damn soff too. I wouldn't say they're much harder than ours is now.
- Victoro311

NYR, TBL, and CHI were all soft rosters. Having tough guys that are strictly there to fight is counter productive to winning.

Neither fit in our system. I don't understand why people want bottom pairing guys who can't move the puck, like Scuderi. Those guys will only look worse here. I'd rather play Clendening.

I thought everyone was over the "grit" phase? Or have we not learned our lesson?
- Pens_Burgh

I don't either. It reminds me of when the Pens had Michalek. He is a good defensive dman but he wasn't a good fit in Bylsma's system. It would be even worse when taking Engelland-types.

NYR, TBL, and CHI were all soft rosters. Having tough guys that are strictly there to fight is counter productive to winning.
- jfkst1

Tampa Bay had a pretty big defense full of guys that can, if motivated, play a physical game (Hedman, Garrison, Coburn, Sustr) as well as Boyle, Callahan, and Filppula up front. But like you alluded to, these are all players that are skilled NHL players who can also play physically. No true goons on the team. But I wouldn't call them soft.

Last year's Chicago Cup team was pretty damn soff too. I wouldn't say they're much harder than ours is now.
- Victoro311

And yet they still had guys like Carcillo and Bickell. Now they have Garbutt and Tropp. And, more importantly, they stick up for each other.

Tampa Bay had a pretty big defense full of guys that can, if motivated, play a physical game (Hedman, Garrison, Coburn, Sustr) as well as Boyle, Callahan, and Filppula up front. But like you alluded to, these are all players that are skilled NHL players who can also play physically. No true goons on the team. But I wouldn't call them soft.
- jmatchett383

Sustr and Carle got smoked though. Tampa should have benched those 2 and rolled the top 4 like Chicago did.

Tampa Bay had a pretty big defense full of guys that can, if motivated, play a physical game (Hedman, Garrison, Coburn, Sustr) as well as Boyle, Callahan, and Filppula up front. But like you alluded to, these are all players that are skilled NHL players who can also play physically. No true goons on the team. But I wouldn't call them soft.
- jmatchett383

Soft in the definition that they aren't especially physical and don't get a lot of PIMs and fights. One non-NHL player is enough to kill the entire line's production with how marginal the differences between teams are in the salary cap era of parity.

Sustr and Carle got smoked though. Tampa should have benched those 2 and rolled the top 4 like Chicago did.
- drummer829

Carle looked bad. Sustr looked worse.

Sadly, they didn't have 3 #1 defenders like Chicago did. After Hedman, they had 3 very good complimentary guys, but they didn't have a top 3 of Keith, Seabrook, and Hjalmarsson. Although, for my money, I thought Hedman was the best defenseman in last year's playoffs.

Like I said before, it has to be a team mentality. You don't need a goon to punch someone in the face or slash them across the wrists or calves in retaliation. You just need the mentality and the willingness to stick up for your teammates. The Pens don't do that.

How many times do you see the opposition take liberties with Pens players and nobody does a single thing about it? Who stepped up when Thornton attacked Orpik? Who stepped up when Rinaldo ran Letang? Who stepped up when Staal repeatedly hacked Crosby? The examples are endless.

The Pens are so soff. They will get run, hacked, and cheap shotted until they do something about it. Simple as that.

And yet they still had guys like Carcillo and Bickell. Now they have Garbutt and Tropp. And, more importantly, they stick up for each other.
- thevelvetfog1

How many games did Carcillo play? Wasn't it zero in the postseason? Bickell was a healthy scratch quite a few times too and is considered a liability on his contract.

I don't either. It reminds me of when the Pens had Michalek. He is a good defensive dman but he wasn't a good fit in Bylsma's system. It would be even worse when taking Engelland-types.
- jfkst1

Exactly, I was pumped when we signed him but he was very underwhelming here due to not being a fit for the system. Guys like Engelland etc aren't even a fit for 90% of NHL teams, and then you want to stick him into a position where the offense and transition game depends on him? Let alone depend on his defensive ability?

Solid pass

Soft in the definition that they aren't especially physical and don't get a lot of PIMs and fights. One non-NHL player is enough to kill the entire line's production with how marginal the differences between teams are in the salary cap era of parity.
- jfkst1

Absolutely. You can play those guys, to a degree, in the regular season at times. But dress them in the playoffs and you're basically taking away a roster spot. Just saying, they didn't have a "goon" but they were still a physical team.

Like I said before, it has to be a team mentality. You don't need a goon to punch someone in the face or slash them across the wrists or calves in retaliation. You just need the mentality and the willingness to stick up for your teammates. The Pens don't do that.

How many times do you see the opposition take liberties with Pens players and nobody does a single thing about it? Who stepped up when Thornton attacked Orpik? Who stepped up when Rinaldo ran Letang? Who stepped up when Staal repeatedly hacked Crosby? The examples are endless.

The Pens are so soff. They will get run, hacked, and cheap shotted until they do something about it. Simple as that.
- thevelvetfog1

I definitely agree with the first part. It's not about 1-2 guys running around fighting and hitting. Team toughness is about all 20 guys on the roster willing to go to hell and back for each other.

I don't care who you are, but if you see Thornton and Rinaldo pull the poop they did, the other 4 guys, and MAF, should have made sure than they beat the ever-loving crap out of them, and not let anything stop them from doing it. As for Staal, well, star players have been getting that treatment in the playoffs since the 1950's, and that will never change.

But i thought the Pens were cutting edge analysts?!?!?!?!? At the edge of cutting. Like, without Mario there would be no analytics.

I could take it or leave it , but let's pick one !

And yet they still had guys like Carcillo and Bickell. Now they have Garbutt and Tropp. And, more importantly, they stick up for each other.
- thevelvetfog1

Carcillo played less than half the games during regular season and didn't play a single game in the playoffs. Chicago had one of the games' gooniest goons at their disposal and they chose not to deploy him. Bickle was not the Bickle of old this past season especially in the playoffs. This year's Chicago team is proof you don't need sand paper to be winners. Won't be surprised if Tropp gets the Carcillo treatment this year.

I anticipate a culture change now that we have serious depth and the same five some of Crosby, Makin, Letang, Kunitz, and Neal/Hornqvist aren't counted on to do absolutely everything. With a competent well rounded supporting cast momentum and moral will skyrocket leading to a more team oriented mentality (read: everyone has each other's backs)

But i thought the Pens were cutting edge analysts?!?!?!?!? At the edge of cutting. Like, without Mario there would be no analytics.
- Blackstrom2

Almost as cutting edge as signing Orpik to that contract.

Not all shady/dirty hits are illegal.
- jmatchett383

I agree. Players react to a lot of good hits the same as they would bad ones. I guess I should have phrased it differently.

The point though is that the refs need to police the game so that enforcers aren't needed.

I definitely agree with the first part. It's not about 1-2 guys running around fighting and hitting. Team toughness is about all 20 guys on the roster willing to go to hell and back for each other.

I don't care who you are, but if you see Thornton and Rinaldo pull the poop they did, the other 4 guys, and MAF, should have made sure than they beat the ever-loving crap out of them, and not let anything stop them from doing it. As for Staal, well, star players have been getting that treatment in the playoffs since the 1950's, and that will never change.
- jmatchett383

Amen. As for Staal, yes, it is more nuanced and the playoffs are a different animal and the refs were clearly calling it one way and not the other. But when was the last time you saw the Pens being the aggressors? When was the last time a guy like Letang was chopping at the neck and head of a guy like Nash? Better yet, what did anyone do to Staal? I understand the star treatment (even though Staal's victim is the biggest star in the game, so not sure how that pencils out) but someone needs to do SOMETHING. Wait until there is a game that is out of hand and go and give Staal a chop or five. Or wait until the first regular season meeting the following year. Tell him to his face, "Here is your payback". Tired of seeing crap like that go unanswered. And it happens ALL THE TIME.