Oduya but he took a beating and was hobbled by the end of the playoff.
- Pixote Andolini

You're right. All 6'0 190 lbs of him

You're right. All 6'0 190 lbs of him
- Just5

Which is why he was so beat down and hobbled.

You're right. All 6'0 190 lbs of him
- Just5

They had 4 D and won the cup! That's a helluva feat. Timonen got some more minutes towards the end but yeah basically 4 D is what Chicago deployed.

Which is why he was so beat down and hobbled.
- Pixote Andolini

The "dirty work" can get done in this league without having to be 230lbs
Dirty work consists of being in the right position, negate a stick on a deflection attempt, skate fast to corners for loose pucks, etc. There's nothing to suggest that luke schenn gets done the "dirty work" on a consistent level (at least more than many bargain bin August signings)

Yes. Nothing in there suggests that's he's not what I believe he is. A grossly overpaid 6/7 dman
- Just5

So just any 25 year old "6/7 defenseman" in the league can average 18 minutes a night? Ryan Parent and Oscar Bartulis would probably differ.

Oduya but he took a beating and was hobbled by the end of the playoff.
- Pixote Andolini

Hjalmarsson/Oduya by a long shot took the toughest defensive minutes on the team. Look at their Relative Quality of Comp. and it goes 1.462 for Hjammer, 1.203 for Oduya.......then Keith comes in at .452 and and Seabrook at .371. Keith/Sea were essentially used as a 2nd pairing from a defensive standpoint, which allowed them to run roughshod over their competition offensively. At least Keith...he slaughtered in terms of relative possession. Seabrook not so much. He actually had a worse relative corsi then Hjammer, funny enough.

I don't look down upon Keith at all though -- Chicago, by product of having, for my money, maybe a top 3 defensive defenseman in the NHL in Hjammer, don't have to put Keith in those tough d minutes. I'm sure he could handle it, but that's Chicago's luxury. Doughty, Weber, they have to take on the toughest competition load on their respective teams. They don't have their Hjammer. In fact, Hjammer has the 4th toughest relative competition in the NHL. Keith clocks in at 92 (one after Hedman interestingly). If you dig into the stats, there's an argument to be had that Oduya is solid as a shutdown guy, but Hjammer carries him big time. He has and has had for most years they've been a pairing a much higher Corsi W/WO compared to Oduya. In tougher minutes as well.

I'm of the very strong belief that Hjammer is their second most important d man today. Keith can play with anyone and anchor the top pair. In fact, Seabrook is kind of carried by him. Hjammer takes on the toughest minutes and anchors from a defensive standpoint that second pair. He could probably play with anyone too. Hjammer is just so underrated, even amongst those who recognize he's good.

In terms of the Flyers in regards to my last jumbo post, the dream is that (obviously we don't know what they'll be on the NHL level), a guy like Morin can log the toughest minutes by far defensively and try to anchor that "second pair" (more like first pair from a defense only perspective), which would allow someone like Sanheim or Provorov or both if they're a pair to just be dynamite in terms of offensive. Having an elite defensive d man would free them up to beast it up even more.

Hjalmarsson/Oduya by a long shot took the toughest defensive minutes on the team. Look at their Relative Quality of Comp. and it goes 1.462 for Hjammer, 1.203 for Oduya.......then Keith comes in at .452 and and Seabrook at .371. Keith/Sea were essentially used as a 2nd pairing from a defensive standpoint, which allowed them to run roughshod over their competition offensively. At least Keith...he slaughtered in terms of relative possession. Seabrook not so much. He actually had a worse relative corsi then Hjammer, funny enough.

I don't look down upon Keith at all though -- Chicago, by product of having, for my money, maybe a top 3 defensive defenseman in the NHL in Hjammer, don't have to put Keith in those tough d minutes. I'm sure he could handle it, but that's Chicago's luxury. Doughty, Weber, they have to take on the toughest competition load on their respective teams. They don't have their Hjammer. In fact, Hjammer has the 4th toughest relative competition in the NHL. Keith clocks in at 92 (one after Hedman interestingly). If you dig into the stats, there's an argument to be had that Oduya is solid as a shutdown guy, but Hjammer carries him big time. He has and has had for most years they've been a pairing a much higher Corsi W/WO compared to Oduya. In tougher minutes as well.

I'm of the very strong belief that Hjammer is their second most important d man today. Keith can play with anyone and anchor the top pair. In fact, Seabrook is kind of carried by him. Hjammer takes on the toughest minutes and anchors from a defensive standpoint that second pair. He could probably play with anyone too. Hjammer is just so underrated, even amongst those who recognize he's good.
- Mononoke

is this Hjalmarsson?

is this Hjalmarsson?
- black_francis

Taking time out from drinking tasty brews out of the cup to post on HB.

In terms of the Flyers in regards to my last jumbo post, the dream is that (obviously we don't know what they'll be on the NHL level), a guy like Morin can log the toughest minutes by far defensively and try to anchor that "second pair" (more like first pair from a defense only perspective), which would allow someone like Sanheim or Provorov or both if they're a pair to just be dynamite in terms of offensive. Having an elite defensive d man would free them up to beast it up even more.
- Mononoke

The dream is that one of our defensive prospects become a legitimate number one defenseman. It doesn't matter if it's Morin, Sanheim or Provorov. Sanheim and Provorov may have a higher upside offensively than Morin but it doesn't mean they can't log heavy defensive minutes in the process. This is what legitimate number one defenseman do.

The dream is that one of our defensive prospects become a legitimate number one defenseman. It doesn't matter if it's Morin, Sanheim or Provorov. Sanheim and Provorov may have a higher upside offensively than Morin but it doesn't mean they can't log heavy defensive minutes in the process. This is what legitimate number one defenseman do.
- SuperSchennBros

Thanks for the nitpick but I just described the -- my -- "dream" scenario, with the implication that Sanheim and Provorov meet their potential too and are logging tough dominant minutes. Given that part of the dream, I was just describing where I could see Morin fitting into that, as a Hjalmarsson type in terms of defensive load, even if not a direct stylistic comparison.

As I just showed in my previous post, often legit number one defensemen do not in fact log the toughest minutes provided there is an elite shutdown d man to help out. Doesn't mean they're exactly sheltered either. But my dream was Morin might be able to help with that. Keith, McDonagh, most teams don't have that luxury to ease up their best guy's workload like those two for example. Ideally with our prospect pool we might have that luxury.

I don't see your point tbh....I said this is my dream situation, as in ideal of ideals, where we have such a luxury of multiple top pairing (offensive and defensive) d men, with a number one out of one of them. Obviously my realistic projection, even at the higher end, is more modest, but hence the word "dream."

This is what legitimate number one defenseman do.
- SuperSchennBros

His entire point was that teams are looking to move away from asking their top guys to do everything at both ends -- for the obvious issue of wear/tear, but also because it puts immense pressure on the other team via mismatches.

Case in point, the Finals: Coburn/Garrison and Oduya/Hjalmarsson took the hardest minutes. Keith and Hedman didn't.

All true, but there really wasn't a discussion on it. The intent of the post wasn't to actually discuss MacDonald, including the few follow ups, from the usual suspects.
- MJL

from a guy who often complains about people making comments about other posters this one is really funny

His entire point was that teams are looking to move away from asking their top guys to do everything at both ends -- for the obvious issue of wear/tear, but also because it puts immense pressure on the other team via mismatches.

Case in point, the Finals: Coburn/Garrison and Oduya/Hjalmarsson took the hardest minutes. Keith and Hedman didn't.
- Tomahawk

I don't think this is true.

Thanks for the nitpick but I just described the -- my -- "dream" scenario, with the implication that Sanheim and Provorov meet their potential too and are logging tough dominant minutes. Given that part of the dream, I was just describing where I could see Morin fitting into that, as a Hjalmarsson type in terms of defensive load, even if not a direct stylistic comparison.

As I just showed in my previous post, often legit number one defensemen do not in fact log the toughest minutes provided there is an elite shutdown d man to help out. Doesn't mean they're exactly sheltered either. But my dream was Morin might be able to help with that. Keith, McDonagh, most teams don't have that luxury to ease up their best guy's workload like those two for example. Ideally with our prospect pool we might have that luxury.

I don't see your point tbh....I said this is my dream situation, as in ideal of ideals, where we have such a luxury of multiple top pairing (offensive and defensive) d men, with a number one out of one of them. Obviously my realistic projection, even at the higher end, is more modest, but hence the word "dream."
- Mononoke

It's not nitpicking if you didn't say "my dream" instead of "the dream". Number 1 defensemen have been used the same for decades. You need an all situations guy to be successful or your left with what we have now. Coburn in my opinion is underappreciated in terms of what he can do but even with Coburn in the line up the past number of years, it didn't mean Timonen wasn't seeing the best of the best when the pair was split. Case and point, in 2012 Grossmann and Coburn took on Malkin in the Penguins series, while Timonen took on Crosby. It's unlikely there will ever be an easy night for any of our up and comers.

We haven't reached the bargain bin in UFA yet. Let's see the deals some of these guys get signed to before we generalize his trade value.

Nil grossman got traded for a guy the team was rumored to be buying out and a 4th rounder. Whhhhhooooooaaaaa
- Just5

Nobody generalized his trade value. The bargain bin for UFA's has zero to do with it.

Grossmann got traded for a player, who has been a decent offensive player in his career. I don't deal in rumors, I try to stay with the actual facts.

When seabrook wasn't out on the ice. Who did Chicago have to do their "trenchwork"?
- Just5

Irrelevant to the discussion on Luke Schenn.

Thanks for the nitpick but I just described the -- my -- "dream" scenario, with the implication that Sanheim and Provorov meet their potential too and are logging tough dominant minutes. Given that part of the dream, I was just describing where I could see Morin fitting into that, as a Hjalmarsson type in terms of defensive load, even if not a direct stylistic comparison.

As I just showed in my previous post, often legit number one defensemen do not in fact log the toughest minutes provided there is an elite shutdown d man to help out. Doesn't mean they're exactly sheltered either. But my dream was Morin might be able to help with that. Keith, McDonagh, most teams don't have that luxury to ease up their best guy's workload like those two for example. Ideally with our prospect pool we might have that luxury.

I don't see your point tbh....I said this is my dream situation, as in ideal of ideals, where we have such a luxury of multiple top pairing (offensive and defensive) d men, with a number one out of one of them. Obviously my realistic projection, even at the higher end, is more modest, but hence the word "dream."
- Mononoke

His point was simple. He's simply saying that a #1 defenseman can play in all situations, and against any competition. Also looking at competition is subjective. The difference in a lot of cases is negligible. It can be misleading, as seems to be a frequent occurrence, to just say player A played against tougher competition than player B, without providing the numbers. The stat is suspect as it is.

The "dirty work" can get done in this league without having to be 230lbs
Dirty work consists of being in the right position, negate a stick on a deflection attempt, skate fast to corners for loose pucks, etc. There's nothing to suggest that luke schenn gets done the "dirty work" on a consistent level (at least more than many bargain bin August signings)
- Just5

Every defenseman on the ice, needs to do those things. That's not what Bill was referring to as the "dirty work".

I can see already that this is going to be a fun day.

I can see already that this is going to be a fun day.
- BiggE

I disagree. If you look at the day in context, you will clearly see that it's not a day at all. To say that this supposed "day" will be fun is nothing but complewte hyperbole, and I'm not interested in dealing with hypotheticals.

I disagree. If you look at the day in context, you will clearly see that it's not a day at all. To say that this supposed "day" will be fun is nothing but complewte hyperbole, and I'm not interested in dealing with hypotheticals.
- jmatchett383

What? You don't like Hypotheticals? That is like so totally racist!

What? You don't like Hypotheticals? That is like so totally racist!

- BiggE

Once you realize that all of your tax money is going to support those hypothetical support programs, you'll feel the same way.

But yeah, this should be a day to just kick back and watch the pissing match.

Once you realize that all of your tax money is going to support those hypothetical support programs, you'll feel the same way.

But yeah, this should be a day to just kick back and watch the pissing match.
- jmatchett383

I can see already that this is going to be a fun day.
- BiggE

Let's make it more fun

I would be really happy with AMac and Luke

IF


They were our 5-6 Dman..
Making 2.5 and 2M ... Instead of the combined 8.6M