funny thing is the flyers are expecting these two to play at this level when they're in their mid 30's when these teenagers they have in the prospect pool develop... just (frank)ing genius.
- JoeRussomanno

Amazingly, the Ducks managed to do pretty much the same thing the Flyers are trying and now have a top contender...but yeah, let's ignore that

if Jake says give me a contract identical to giroux, do any of you guys step away from the table?
- stayinthefnnet

Here are the papers, Jake. Happy to keep you as part of the team.

no i think at this point (barring any drastic fluctuations in his play) he is as valuable or more valuable than giroux. im starting to think jake would be the better captain.
- black_francis

easy there, that's my thunder you're stealing

Amazingly, the Ducks managed to do pretty much the same thing the Flyers are trying and now have a top contender...but yeah, let's ignore that
- Jsaquella

oh I didn't realize the goal was to be a contender. thought we were aiming a bit higher.

oh I didn't realize the goal was to be a contender. thought we were aiming a bit higher.
- JoeRussomanno

You need to be a contender in order to reach the higher intended goals.

oh I didn't realize the goal was to be a contender. thought we were aiming a bit higher.
- JoeRussomanno

Usually need to contend to have a shot to win. It's called taking steps towards the ultimate goal.

You need to be a contender in order to reach the higher intended goals.
- ob18

ok so one team has reached the final four doing that.

Usually need to contend to have a shot to win. It's called taking steps towards the ultimate goal.
- Jsaquella

so we're going to follow an iffy at best plan that has yet to succeed... ok this just might be different.

Id ink him in for 6 years at that cap number in a second
- Just5

Yessir

Until proven otherwise, not sure this team can score on the PP without Giroux and at ES without Voracek, so yeah, you gotta pay those men their money and give them better support options

I don't love how much Chicago is paying Toews and Kane, but if you're gonna pay people, always pay difference makers, not third-liners and third-pair defenders. Can't dispute they aren't doing just that

Not to say the latter aren't valuable, because the playoffs always show how top lines can usually be neutralized. But you gotta make the playoffs first, and elite point producers are high on the list to getting there

I love seeing the old vets getting to hoist the Cup.

Timonen is at 2:28 of the video.


http://wgntv.com/2015/06/...stanley-cup-parade-rally/

so we're going to follow an iffy at best plan that has yet to succeed... ok this just might be different.
- JoeRussomanno

Drafting and developing is an iffy plan? It just so happens that the Flyers roster is most similar to the Ducks when they started their retooling-two mid 20's star players, with a younger D corps. Also similar to the Rangers, and even the Kings, although the disparity wasn't as pronounced in the ages of Kopitar and Doughty and Voynov.

Yeah, so much better to trade away the future and chase the big, shiny names who cost an arm and a leg. That plan has worked so well for the Flyers.

Yessir

Until proven otherwise, not sure this team can score on the PP without Giroux and at ES without Voracek, so yeah, you gotta pay those men their money and give them better support options

I don't love how much Chicago is paying Toews and Kane, but if you're gonna pay people, always pay difference makers, not third-liners and third-pair defenders. Can't dispute they aren't doing just that

Not to say the latter aren't valuable, because the playoffs always show how top lines can usually be neutralized. But you gotta make the playoffs first, and elite point producers are high on the list to getting there
- AllInForFlyers

At the very least, keep them both under control, so if the kids don't develop as hoped, they're an asset that can be moved for a great return.

But yeah, the Flyers aren't in cap Hell because Giroux's making $8+mm a year. They're in trouble because of the money they're spending on a mediocre defense and bottom six forwards.

Drafting and developing is an iffy plan? It just so happens that the Flyers roster is most similar to the Ducks when they started their retooling-two mid 20's star players, with a younger D corps. Also similar to the Rangers, and even the Kings, although the disparity wasn't as pronounced in the ages of Kopitar and Doughty and Voynov.

Yeah, so much better to trade away the future and chase the big, shiny names who cost an arm and a leg. That plan has worked so well for the Flyers.
- Jsaquella

how can one plan that hasn't worked be better than another that hasn't ? all im saying is if you wanna draft and develop fine do that, but don't let players toil hopelessly in hopes that some prospects that have not played one shift in the nhl will come out and be a bunch of bobby orrs. for all we know sanheim and morin could be coburn and carle.

how can one plan that hasn't worked be better than one that is? all im saying is if you wanna draft and develop fine do that, but don't let players toil hopelessly in hopes that some prospects that have not played one shift in the nhl will come out and be a bunch of bobby orrs. for all we know sanheim and morin could be coburn and carle.
- JoeRussomanno

They could be busts. They could also go chasing big names that don't pan out, or basically what they did from 2009-2014. Yes, they have to draft well, but the best way to have sustained success is to draft and develop well, consistently have pieces ready to step in and to recoup value. Far better to deal a big name one year too early than acquire him one year too late.

Look at the free agent class. Look at the kind of players being shopped around the league. Flawed or one dimensional players, who cost a ton of cash to sign or assets to acquire. Then you're stuck playing Lukas Krajicek on the third pair, because you don't have a good youngster to plug in or can't afford to trade for a good vet at the deadline to step in and be a solid contributor

They could be busts. They could also go chasing big names that don't pan out, or basically what they did from 2009-2014. Yes, they have to draft well, but the best way to have sustained success is to draft and develop well, consistently have pieces ready to step in and to recoup value. Far better to deal a big name one year too early than acquire him one year too late.

Look at the free agent class. Look at the kind of players being shopped around the league. Flawed or one dimensional players, who cost a ton of cash to sign or assets to acquire. Then you're stuck playing Lukas Krajicek on the third pair, because you don't have a good youngster to plug in or can't afford to trade for a good vet at the deadline to step in and be a solid contributor
- Jsaquella

kinda made my point for me mentioning its better to trade a year ealy than a year too late, didn't ya? im just saying i dont like have guys that far apart in age just seems like its unfair and kinda ironic considering what today's blog was anout to expect guys in their 30's to haul the wagon. i find it much safer to project a decline in a player than a plateau or progression.

kinda made my point for me mentioning its better to trade a year ealy than a year too late, didn't ya? im just saying i dont like have guys that far apart in age just seems like its unfair and kinda ironic considering what today's blog was anout to expect guys in their 30's to haul the wagon. i find it much safer to project a decline in a player than a plateau or progression.
- JoeRussomanno

That would be fine if Giroux or Voracek were 30. But they aren't. Neither plays a style that is likely to see the kind of decline that a guy like Richards experienced, either. In Chicago, Marian Hossa is 36. Patrick Sharp is 33. Both still productive and valuable players.

The Ducks made the final four with Sami Vatanen age 24, Cam Fowler age 23, Simon Despres 23 and Hampus Lindholm, 21 playing huge roles and the offense keyed by the 30 year old Getzlaff & Perry.

In the Flyers case, perhaps when guys like Sanheim and Morin are 23 or 24 year old rising defensemen, the 31 Giroux and 30 year old Voracek can be moved for huge returns that set the table for a talented young team.

how can one plan that hasn't worked be better than another that hasn't ? all im saying is if you wanna draft and develop fine do that, but don't let players toil hopelessly in hopes that some prospects that have not played one shift in the nhl will come out and be a bunch of bobby orrs. for all we know sanheim and morin could be coburn and carle.
- JoeRussomanno

I'm not sure what point you really are trying to make. We should trade G and Jake today because they will be 30 in several years?

I'm not sure what point you really are trying to make. We should trade G and Jake today because they will be 30 in several years?
- Fryman4

That kind of puzzled me, too. There's a difference in trading a 27 year old superstar and a 32 year old one

I'm not sure what point you really are trying to make. We should trade G and Jake today because they will be 30 in several years?
- Fryman4

im sorry i didnt realize that the difficulty of winning with aging players is a hard concept to grasp, my apologies.

how can one plan that hasn't worked be better than another that hasn't ? all im saying is if you wanna draft and develop fine do that, but don't let players toil hopelessly in hopes that some prospects that have not played one shift in the nhl will come out and be a bunch of bobby orrs. for all we know sanheim and morin could be coburn and carle.
- JoeRussomanno

I think you make some reasonable points. You could be waiting forever. Lots of teams have tried to draft and develop players to get to the top and have failed. It doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you do. Doesn't matter what method you use either. You can have patience and draft and develop players poorly. Prospects can not pan out. There are no bad methods of acquiring players. Just bad moves and good moves.

im sorry i didnt realize that the difficulty of winning with aging players is a hard concept to grasp, my apologies.
- JoeRussomanno

It's not really true, is the trouble.

The team that just won the Cup iced 4 guys over age 32 in their top 9 (Hossa 36,Richards 35, Sharp 33,Vermette 32) and had three of their top 4 D-men at advanced ages and playing huge minutes (Oduya 33, Keith 31, Seabrook 30)

That would be fine if Giroux or Voracek were 30. But they aren't. Neither plays a style that is likely to see the kind of decline that a guy like Richards experienced, either. In Chicago, Marian Hossa is 36. Patrick Sharp is 33. Both still productive and valuable players.

The Ducks made the final four with Sami Vatanen age 24, Cam Fowler age 23, Simon Despres 23 and Hampus Lindholm, 21 playing huge roles and the offense keyed by the 30 year old Getzlaff & Perry.

In the Flyers case, perhaps when guys like Sanheim and Morin are 23 or 24 year old rising defensemen, the 31 Giroux and 30 year old Voracek can be moved for huge returns that set the table for a talented young team.
- Jsaquella

I'm really looking forward to seeing a blueline who can do more then mainly just chip the puck up the boards and hope the winger can dig the puck out of the defensive zone. Dmen with a little more mobility and a little more passing skill and I believe the goals will become more plentiful even if the top 9 forwards stays the same right now. They just aren't able to consistently generate speed through the neutral zone because the passing or the ability of a dman to carry the puck up the ice just isn't there enough.

I'm really looking forward to seeing a blueline who can do more then mainly just chip the puck up the boards and hope the winger can dig the puck out of the defensive zone. Dmen with a little more mobility and a little more passing skill and I believe the goals will become more plentiful even if the top 9 forwards stays the same right now. They just aren't able to consistently generate speed through the neutral zone because the passing or the ability of a dman to carry the puck up the ice just isn't there enough.
- ravishingone

I want mobile defensemen who can play defense. I want bigger guys who can skate well and don't have to rely on chipping it out the majority of the time. I want guys who are a threat to simply lug the puck up ice and force teams to respect them and not be able to aggressively forecheck and hem them into their own end for long stretches of time.

It's not really true, is the trouble.

The team that just won the Cup iced 4 guys over age 32 in their top 9 (Hossa 36,Richards 35, Sharp 33,Vermette 32) and had three of their top 4 D-men at advanced ages and playing huge minutes (Oduya 33, Keith 31, Seabrook 30)
- Jsaquella

out of all them keith and seabrook are the only exception to what im saying and even they are stillon the cusp.those other guys are secondary pieces. Toews and kane are your giroux and voracek on that team. realistically giroux, voracek and mason will be 34/35 when these prospects can reasonably be expected to carry the load.

I think you make some reasonable points. You could be waiting forever. Lots of teams have tried to draft and develop players to get to the top and have failed. It doesn't matter how you get there, as long as you do. Doesn't matter what method you use either. You can have patience and draft and develop players poorly. Prospects can not pan out. There are no bad methods of acquiring players. Just bad moves and good moves.
- MJL

im all for drafting and development im not for expecting guys in their mid 30's to be your go to guys.