Well, the Pens are in a difficult phase thats for sure. They need to retool their core with balanced players at modest contracts. Trading Malkin could be a good start if you can get 1-2 young players that are already producing, and 1-2 decent prospects plus a draft pick. The problem is also top heavy, you need depth behind your top Dmen and Depth behind your top fowards but you don't have the young kids that can take meaningful roster spots and produce. Its a tough situation.
- xcheckmajor

I think that these next few years is where having Dumo/Maatta/Harrington/Pouliot on entry level deals is going to pay huge dividends. At this point, whether they are ready or not..it's time to let them all play. By having them on the ELC's it will give whoever the GM is at the time the opportunity to sign the right players to flesh out the rest of the roster.

7th rounders being traded mean nothing. Why don't you go through every 7th round pick in the last 10 years and see how many work out.
- jfkst1

7% play at least 100 NHL games. For what it's worth, 8.6% of the 5th round play at least 100 and 17.2% from the 3rd round play at least 100 so they're really not as worthless as you think.

Hornqvist was a 7th round pick btw.

You could call it luck or you could call it extremely good drafting and extremely good trading and the best goalie developer in the NHL. Or is Sather and Gorton and Allaire just the luckiest guys in the NHL.

Lundqvist drafted 6th rd
Stepan drafted 2nd rd
Girardi undrafted
Dubinsky 3rd rd & Co. --> Nash
Callahan 3rd rd --> St. Louis
Hagelin 6th rd
Zuccarello undrafted
etc.....

Just gotta admit, Sather and Gorton have run this organization the past 6 years just about as good as you can run a hockey club.
- xcheckmajor

one quibble, the callahan for st louis was actually with a couple of 1sts as well.

How annoying was Pierre last night?

"A year ago, that would have been a goal"

I heard that at least 5 times. We get it Pierre. Also when they asked for the Penguins goalie coaches background and he fired it off without hesitation.. Dude is creepy.
- znagle

Agreed. And a year ago Fleury wasn't bad in the playoffs. It was 2-4 years ago.
The guys a weird mix of incredible hockey knowledge and extremely annoying.

one quibble, the callahan for st louis was actually with a couple of 1sts as well.
- Isles_since_6

We got a 2nd back too.

Aside from a couple gaffs I thought Chorney looked completely capable and dare I say kinda dynamic last night. Dumo plays a simpler game - which is fine. But old Horney Chorney impressed me.

Agreed. And a year ago Fleury wasn't bad in the playoffs. It was 2-4 years ago.
The guys a weird mix of incredible hockey knowledge and extremely annoying.
- brienstel

Yeah last year he was fine. I bet he is studying about scouts parents right now. It's so weird, I've heard him give player's parents names before. Like what the (frank)?

I don't believe he has a NMC. Not sure if he wants to go anywhere or has any value whatsoever.

Kapanen, Sundqvist, Rust, Wilson, Pouliot, Dumoulin, and Harrington are all possibilities in the lineup next year. For all accounts and purposes, the Penguins prospect pool is average. Obviously, we'd all like it to be better, but it isn't completely void of potential either.
- jfkst1

I like all those guys in the line up next year. We have nothing to lose by putting every guy in the farm up for a few games to see what they're capable of and then making decisions from there. I like the urgency and vigor guys from the farm play with - they're hungry.

Rangers have also one of the best international scouting groups in the league. They have never been afraid to gamble on players that are good overseas. Buchnevich, Cherepanov, Lundqvist, Zuccarello, Fast, etc... Lots of time, international players go overlooked because they aren't from the CHL and don't play NA hockey. Lundqvist wasn't exactly unknown, he was the best goalie in the Swedish Elite. We took him 7th because no one else did. Rangers also go to NCAA for a lot of their players too. I think the organization likes to pick players tested against more pro players and older competition rather than vesting too much into players that haven't developed as much.

Rangers have also one of the best international scouting groups in the league. They have never been afraid to gamble on players that are good overseas. Buchnevich, Cherepanov, Lundqvist, Zuccarello, Fast, etc... Lots of time, international players go overlooked because they aren't from the CHL and don't play NA hockey. Lundqvist wasn't exactly unknown, he was the best goalie in the Swedish Elite. We took him 7th because no one else did. Rangers also go to NCAA for a lot of their players too. I think the organization likes to pick players tested against more pro players and older competition rather than vesting too much into players that haven't developed as much.
- xcheckmajor

I think expecting these Pens fans to fellate our scouting staff is unrealistic.

7% play at least 100 NHL games. For what it's worth, 8.6% of the 5th round play at least 100 and 17.2% from the 3rd round play at least 100 so they're really not as worthless as you think.

Hornqvist was a 7th round pick btw.
- rangerdanger94

There is no organization that is consistently having better than random success rates with 7th rounders. Which by definition makes those picks a lottery. Development is also a related yet separate organizational function that is required for any late round picks as none are coming into the NHL immediately.

Rangers have also one of the best international scouting groups in the league. They have never been afraid to gamble on players that are good overseas. Buchnevich, Cherepanov, Lundqvist, Zuccarello, Fast, etc... Lots of time, international players go overlooked because they aren't from the CHL and don't play NA hockey. Lundqvist wasn't exactly unknown, he was the best goalie in the Swedish Elite. We took him 7th because no one else did. Rangers also go to NCAA for a lot of their players too. I think the organization likes to pick players tested against more pro players and older competition rather than vesting too much into players that haven't developed as much.
- xcheckmajor

I don't necessarily buy into everyone lauding Sather and the Rangers for their management. It wasn't long ago that Sather was widely considered the worst GM in hockey and the only reason he was employed was because of his relationship with the owner. He traded lots of high picks, overpaid guys, and brought in a hodgepodge of players that seemingly had no chemistry.

After 10 (maybe more) years of this he's finally assembled a team in the last 2-3 years. So, sure, I guess he's done a good job but I would say 70% (or more) of his tenure has been a disaster... or maybe he rope-a-doped everyone - a tactic never seen in management before, the old dog is teaching new tricks, who knows.

There is no organization that is consistently having better than random success rates with 7th rounders. Which by definition makes those picks a lottery. Development is also a related yet separate organizational function that is required for any late round picks as none are coming into the NHL immediately.
- jfkst1

Yes and my point was is that without a 7th you have zero chance. With a 7th, you at least have a chance.

The chances of drafting any legit NHL player 5th round and beyond are limited at best, but if you have 3 or more picks in those rounds every year for 5 consecutive years, you have solid odds to drafting a good player.

Are there any correlations between farm team success as predictors of nhl level success?

Logically, if your farm is winning against other teams farm shouldn't that translate to nhl winning in the long run?

Or do outliers like crosby, mcdcvid, stamkos, etc. throw this linear assumption out the window?

Before we overpay a UFA, I'd like to see Wilson and Sheary given a shot at Kunitz's spot after we buyout/trade him.

Are there any correlations between farm team success as predictors of nhl level success?

Logically, if your farm is winning against other teams farm shouldn't that translate to nhl winning in the long run?

Or do outliers like crosby, mcdcvid, stamkos, etc. through this linear assumption out the window?
- brienstel

17 players in the Tampa Detroit series played in the Calder Cup Finals in 2013.

I think expecting these Pens fans to fellate our scouting staff is unrealistic.
- rangerdanger94

Handy out of the question?

17 players in the Tampa Detroit series played in the Calder Cup Finals in 2013.
- rangerdanger94

Good thing the Penguins farm system exists only to chase Calder Cups or to basically provide trade bait to get aging ex-Pens back in town.

Yes and my point was is that without a 7th you have zero chance. With a 7th, you at least have a chance.

The chances of drafting any legit NHL player 5th round and beyond are limited at best, but if you have 3 or more picks in those rounds every year for 5 consecutive years, you have solid odds to drafting a good player.
- rangerdanger94

Very true. But my point is that no GM is going to keep a 7th rounder for a player that is a 95+% certain to be a NHL player. Which is what you proposed with a 7th for Winnik (who was traded for a 2nd and 5th). The problem with Shero, and extending to Rutherford, is trading away 1st and 2nd rounders for rentals and not trading away their own rentals to recoup the losses.

I don't necessarily buy into everyone lauding Sather and the Rangers for their management. It wasn't long ago that Sather was widely considered the worst GM in hockey and the only reason he was employed was because of his relationship with the owner. He traded lots of high picks, overpaid guys, and brought in a hodgepodge of players that seemingly had no chemistry.

After 10 (maybe more) years of this he's finally assembled a team in the last 2-3 years. So, sure, I guess he's done a good job but I would say 70% (or more) of his tenure has been a disaster... or maybe he rope-a-doped everyone - a tactic never seen in management before, the old dog is teaching new tricks, who knows.
- brienstel

I disagree, I have always been supportive of Sather. Sather was brought in when the team was a mess. He inherited a team that had 0 farm system, and a bunch of overpaid Vets. Problem was, Sather was also the President of the NY Rangers, a fanbase that expected results and an organization that needed to still sell seats and make profits. And I don't believe he ever traded away high picks, he horded picks and purchased UFA's. The picks were what he valued more.

So the first 4 years of Sather's reign, he was charged with putting a decent product on the ice for people to buy tickets while simultaneously retooling the farm system and restructuring the drafting, scouting, developing of prospects. That doesn't happen overnight. You saw Sather do things like trade away Leetch. He needed to bring in assets and make good picks. That takes years to actually show results. In the meantime, he took gambles on UFA's that could still give the Rangers some competitiveness. Few panned out, but I guarantee you Sather's primary objective was still to retool the system. Once the lockout ended, Sather missed the playoffs ONCE in the past 10 years. The only mistake he really made was Wade Redden. Beyond that, he's made choices and turned players that didn't pan out into players that do. I don't think you can really say a single bad thing about Glen Sather. Rangers, missed the playoffs 7 straight years, into making the playoffs 10 straight years ALL without ever hitting the lottery. And now we have one of strongest organizations in the league in terms of youth, good cap management, and overall playoff success. And the end is no where in sight, this team is poised to good for at least another 5 years.

Very true. But my point is that no GM is going to keep a 7th rounder for a player that is a 95+% certain to be a NHL player. Which is what you proposed with a 7th for Winnik (who was traded for a 2nd and 5th). The problem with Shero, and extending to Rutherford, is trading away 1st and 2nd rounders for rentals and not trading away their own rentals to recoup the losses.
- jfkst1

Yea that Winnik trade was brutal. If you think you've got a shot, I totally understand going for it and dealing quality picks and prospects. But a 2nd+ for Winnik?

sather paid steep prices for Yandle and MSL but they're impact players and weren't just playoff rentals.

Are there any correlations between farm team success as predictors of nhl level success?

Logically, if your farm is winning against other teams farm shouldn't that translate to nhl winning in the long run?

Or do outliers like crosby, mcdcvid, stamkos, etc. through this linear assumption out the window?
- brienstel

No because your NHL club is not a direct translation of 1 farm team. You have multiple picks scattered through multiple clubs....that doesn't mean it all comes together. If all of our best prospects all played for the Wolfpack, they would probably be pretty good. But ages are also different too.

Yea that Winnik trade was brutal. If you think you've got a shot, I totally understand going for it and dealing quality picks and prospects. But a 2nd+ for Winnik?

sather paid steep prices for Yandle and MSL but they're impact players and weren't just playoff rentals.
- rangerdanger94

Depends on what happens after this season. If he stays and is productive for several more years it might not turn out so painful. If he leaves it will be bad. Same thing as if the Rags don't win the cup and Duclair becomes a high end player. It'll look ugly. It's part of being deadline buyers. My problem with Winnik is that he could have been signed very cheaply for several years last summer as a UFA. That's my biggest issue with it.

I think expecting these Pens fans to fellate our scouting staff is unrealistic.
- rangerdanger94

Expecting you to stop is equally unlikely.

I disagree, I have always been supportive of Sather. Sather was brought in when the team was a mess. He inherited a team that had 0 farm system, and a bunch of overpaid Vets. Problem was, Sather was also the President of the NY Rangers, a fanbase that expected results and an organization that needed to still sell seats and make profits. And I don't believe he ever traded away high picks, he horded picks and purchased UFA's. The picks were what he valued more.

So the first 4 years of Sather's reign, he was charged with putting a decent product on the ice for people to buy tickets while simultaneously retooling the farm system and restructuring the drafting, scouting, developing of prospects. That doesn't happen overnight. You saw Sather do things like trade away Leetch. He needed to bring in assets and make good picks. That takes years to actually show results. In the meantime, he took gambles on UFA's that could still give the Rangers some competitiveness. Few panned out, but I guarantee you Sather's primary objective was still to retool the system. Once the lockout ended, Sather missed the playoffs ONCE in the past 10 years. The only mistake he really made was Wade Redden. Beyond that, he's made choices and turned players that didn't pan out into players that do. I don't think you can really say a single bad thing about Glen Sather. Rangers, missed the playoffs 7 straight years, into making the playoffs 10 straight years ALL without ever hitting the lottery. And now we have one of strongest organizations in the league in terms of youth, good cap management, and overall playoff success. And the end is no where in sight, this team is poised to good for at least another 5 years.
- xcheckmajor

Well said.