Pat lafontaine better than Crosby.....

You're entitled to your opinion and i think I'll just leave it alone
- Ihateallofu

To be honest, they are pretty comparable. Put up big numbers, had concussion issues. I said I'd argue it, not 100% LaFontaine is the better player.

Sure, I'm all for constructive discussion. I'm not using points from a bygone era as a strike against Crosby but are we supposed to believe that say, Gretzky wouldn't have been able to consistently put up 60 goal, 150 point seasons in today's NHL?

Its not all just about the era someone played in. So, since scoring was higher in the 80s and 90s do we put an asterisk next to individual stats?

I just don't think that the problem today is completely the NHL's own fault, large goalie pads or a small rink/increased player size/pad size.

So by the logic that today's NHL is what's holding players back from scoring goals, Ovechkin would be a consistent 80 - 100 goal scorer, since his 60 goals seasons and 50 goal seasons were in the modern NHL. And Crosby would be putting up 150+ point seasons every year.
- DynamicThreads

Yes. Players are by and large bigger, faster,stronger, better prepared, in better shape etc etc etc. and goalies are better with bigger equipment.

You don't think that players have just all declined do you? That's literally the only logical conclusion by your metric.

And yes, I think Ovie would at least be in the running for breaking gretzkys goal records from year to year. Probably fall just short like hull did.
And yes, I think for sure Crosby is among the elite scorers just like he is now.
And that would mean 150 +

It's really the only logical conclusion imo

To be honest, they are pretty comparable. Put up big numbers, had concussion issues. I said I'd argue it, not 100% LaFontaine is the better player.
- DynamicThreads

Sid is a generational talent.

Patty was dynamic but never even close to considered on that level

Sid is a generational talent.

Patty was dynamic but never even close to considered on that level
- Ihateallofu

Agreed.

Yes. Players are by and large bigger, faster,stronger, better prepared, in better shape etc etc etc. and goalies are better with bigger equipment.

You don't think that players have just all declined do you? That's literally the only logical conclusion by your metric.

And yes, I think Ovie would at least be in the running for breaking gretzkys goal records from year to year. Probably fall just short like hull did.
And yes, I think for sure Crosby is among the elite scorers just like he is now.
And that would mean 150 +

It's really the only logical conclusion imo
- Ihateallofu

Not necessarily that players have declined. Just that there is more parity and with the militarization of sports (meaning the way players are trained, practice and taught) it means that more players are of similar skill-sets and smarts so the competition is "better". The way the game is taught and played simply does not allow for 150 point players anymore. It has nothing to do with the NHL getting in the way of its players.

And I don't think its so much goalie pad size as it is goalie athleticism increasing. In fact, I think that if pads were down-sized it could actually cause less scoring. Modern goaltending equipment is heavy as poope. You remove a quarter inch here and there and with it a few pounds, and you WILL see more acrobatic saves and a larger gap between the great and the good. I mean, Hasek's pads were tiny and he put up unbelievable numbers. Patrick Roy played most of his career with smaller pads and is generally considered a top-3 goalie all time.

The problem with scoring in today's NHL is that most players are clones of each other, with specific "specialties" i.e. Sniper, Playmaker, etc... And no one has developed a response to increased defensive responsibility in the form of offensive ingenuity.

Agreed.
- cabin

Yep.

In no way was meant as a hate on patty or any other sabre he mentioned.
But it's apples and oranges here.

The crosbys and the ovechkins of this era will be compared with the gretzkys and the Lemieuxs of previous generations. And rightly so.

I never got to see gilbert Perrault
But according to my pops, he was all world.
That said, him and hasek are the only two Sabres that belong in a conversation of that truly elite echelon.

Not necessarily that players have declined. Just that there is more parity and with the militarization of sports (meaning the way players are trained, practice and taught) it means that more players are of similar skill-sets and smarts so the competition is "better". The way the game is taught and played simply does not allow for 150 point players anymore. It has nothing to do with the NHL getting in the way of its players.

And I don't think its so much goalie pad size as it is goalie athleticism increasing. In fact, I think that if pads were down-sized it could actually cause less scoring. Modern goaltending equipment is heavy as poope. You remove a quarter inch here and there and with it a few pounds, and you WILL see more acrobatic saves and a larger gap between the great and the good. I mean, Hasek's pads were tiny and he put up unbelievable numbers. Patrick Roy played most of his career with smaller pads and is generally considered a top-3 goalie all time.

The problem with scoring in today's NHL is that most players are clones of each other, with specific "specialties" i.e. Sniper, Playmaker, etc... And no one has developed a response to increased defensive responsibility in the form of offensive ingenuity.
- DynamicThreads

The only part of this I can agree with is the defensive systems that have been put in place. Defensive wins championships. Someone figured that out and ran with it.

The rest, I just don't agree with at all.
Gretzky was actually the first guy I heard say how much better players are today.

I watch some tape of the oilers dynasty and it's kinda crazy actually How much a beast like ovechkin would feast on those players.
As I said, I don't think it has anything to do with a supposed lAck of creative teaching, it's that teaching and skill training has come so far, making everyone so much better.

A dude with a cannon back in the day was such a massive weapon. But today, with nEw technology, more strength, better technique etc. so many guys have blasts. Like it's far from out of the ordinary from your plug 3rd pairing guy to have a howitzer.
That was unheard of in those times.

The only part of this I can agree with is the defensive systems that have been put in place. Defensive wins championships. Someone figured that out and ran with it.

The rest, I just don't agree with at all.
Gretzky was actually the first guy I heard say how much better players are today.

I watch some tape of the oilers dynasty and it's kinda crazy actually How much a beast like ovechkin would feast on those players.
As I said, I don't think it has anything to do with a supposed lAck of creative teaching, it's that teaching and skill training has come so far, making everyone so much better.

A dude with a cannon back in the day was such a massive weapon. But today, with nEw technology, more strength, better technique etc. so many guys have blasts. Like it's far from out of the ordinary from your plug 3rd pairing guy to have a howitzer.
That was unheard of in those times.
- Ihateallofu

I watched Jon Van Boxmeer score from the right point many times. Counted on it when we needed a goal. I miss them times of smaller padded goalies.

Sid is a generational talent.

Patty was dynamic but never even close to considered on that level
- Ihateallofu

When Patty was traded here he was on pace for 134 points if not for Jamie Macoun. It would have led the league (Mario had 131).

The next year he finished second in scoring.

Granted it was only two seasons and the concussions lingered for the rest of his career. Patty was a generational talent as much as Sid is today. The only difference was you had several generational players all playing together in the 80's and 90's.

When Patty was traded here he was on pace for 134 points if not for Jamie Macoun. It would have led the league over (Mario had 131).

The next year he finished second in scoring.

Granted it was only two seasons and the concussions lingered for the rest of his career. Patty was a generational talent as much as Sid is today. The only difference was you had several generational players all playing together in the 80's and 90's.
- dadeadhead

which is why i'm excited to see McDavid and Reinhart run this place with the likes of kane ennis and girgensons (among others) as compliments

which is why i'm excited to see McDavid and Reinhart run this place with the likes of kane ennis and girgensons (among others) as compliments
- feetontheair22

Agreed but it is more probable that it will be Eichel and Reinhart though.

When Patty was traded here he was on pace for 134 points if not for Jamie Macoun. It would have led the league over (Mario had 131).

The next year he finished second in scoring.

Granted it was only two seasons and the concussions lingered for the rest of his career. Patty was a generational talent as much as Sid is today. The only difference was you had several generational players all playing together in the 80's and 90's.
- dadeadhead

I wasn't even calling him a generational player. But I don't care what era he played in, you don't notch 95 assists for no reason, and in Mogilny's 76 goal season, where he tied with Teemu Selenne for the league lead, the second place goal scorer was Lemeuix with 69, Robataille with 63, everyone else under 60. So you can't just claim that Mogilny played in a better era. Aside from Lemeuix's 69, the goal scoring really wasn't out of control. Sure you had MORE 50 goal scorers, but in today's NHL, it seems like assists are the biggest difference. there are still usually several 40 goal scorers a year and usually a few 50 goal scorers.

I wasn't even calling him a generational player. But I don't care what era he played in, you don't notch 95 assists for no reason, and in Mogilny's 76 goal season, where he tied with Teemu Selenne for the league lead, the second place goal scorer was Lemeuix with 69, Robataille with 63, everyone else under 60. So you can't just claim that Mogilny played in a better era. Aside from Lemeuix's 69, the goal scoring really wasn't out of control. Sure you had MORE 50 goal scorers, but in today's NHL, it seems like assists are the biggest difference. there are still usually several 40 goal scorers a year and usually a few 50 goal scorers.
- DynamicThreads

Not this season. top 6 goal scorers

Ovy 52
Stamkos 42
Nash 42
Seguin 37
Pavelski 37
Pacioretty 37

people under 33 know who he is though
- dadeadhead

I can attest that people who ARE 33 know who he is

I can attest that people who ARE 33 know who he is
- SabresFaninIndiana

You sit on the teachers desk ,staring at her lap and occasionally roll off too the floor for a better view.

I can attest that people who ARE 33 know who he is
- SabresFaninIndiana

I'm under 33, and I know who Kurri is. I might be wrong, and too lazy to look up on my phone, but I think he is 3rd in NHL scorer? And i remember him playing in the downward side of his career.

You sit on the teachers desk ,staring at her lap and occasionally roll off too the floor for a better view.
- cabin

I'm under 33, and I know who Kurri is. I might be wrong, and too lazy to look up on my phone, but I think he is 3rd in NHL scorer? And i remember him playing in the downward side of his career.
- Mentalorgasm5

Gordie Howe is #3 in scoring.

Kurri is like 20th.

Also, best player people under the age of 33 don't know? Mark Howe or Mike Rogers.
- BINGO!

Blaine Stoughton

We can't count on Ottawa beating Pittsburgh, they're down by 2.

Chances Arizona closes it out for us tonight?

If you were to put Mario or Wayne in todays NHL they would struggle to get to 100. They would still lead the pack but todays NHL is just different. Its hard to compare eras. I mean the early 2000's were much different from hockey right now.

I feel bad for the generational players of this era. They wont ever be in the top 5 list due to the change in the NHL with lower scoring.

Chances Arizona closes it out for us tonight?
- beargk

Zero. We will close it out on Friday with a 3-2 lose to the jackets

Zero. We will close it out on Friday with a 3-2 lose to the jackets
- Smittyx36

I really hope it gets done tonight. Could use a pick me up. Getting taxes done at 8:30

If you were to put Mario or Wayne in todays NHL they would struggle to get to 100. They would still lead the pack but todays NHL is just different. Its hard to compare eras. I mean the early 2000's were much different from hockey right now.

I feel bad for the generational players of this era. They wont ever be in the top 5 list due to the change in the NHL with lower scoring.
- Smittyx36

[url]
disagree, Wayne was rediculous and would still be the great one.