10:1 you looked that up.
- James_Tanner

Ae you sure you aren't Ricahrd Cloutier ?

10:1 you looked that up.
- James_Tanner

Why do you think plus minus is so irrelevant? I mean, I agree it's a pretty bad stat. But I also think that there's a little value there where the league leaders in that stat are guys that are defensively responsible, play a lot of minutes (therefore are on the ice for a lot of goals for), play on good teams, and generally have a reputation of being some of the top two-way players in the league.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, for the players with the worst plus minus in the league, I think these players aren't really as bad as the stat indicates. But they do play on terrible defensive teams, which in part is due to their lack of defensive ability. I mean, the top 5 worst plus minus players are Yakupov, Kessel, Bozak, JVR, and Risto. You mean to tell me there's not a correlation with how bad their teams are defensively, their plus minus, and how many minutes they play?

The stat can be skewed because a lot of it depends on what other players are on the ice...but that's the exact same thing as individual players' Corsi.

Why do you think plus minus is so irrelevant? I mean, I agree it's a pretty bad stat. But I also think that there's a little value there where the league leaders in that stat are guys that are defensively responsible, play a lot of minutes (therefore are on the ice for a lot of goals for), play on good teams, and generally have a reputation of being some of the top two-way players in the league.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, for the players with the worst plus minus in the league, I think these players aren't really as bad as the stat indicates. But they do play on terrible defensive teams, which in part is due to their lack of defensive ability. I mean, the top 5 worst plus minus players are Yakupov, Kessel, Bozak, JVR, and Risto. You mean to tell me there's not a correlation with how bad their teams are defensively, their plus minus, and how many minutes they play?

The stat can be skewed because a lot of it depends on what other players are on the ice...but that's the exact same thing as individual players' Corsi.
- rangerdanger94

No stat is a bad stat. It's just a measurement.

Saying that it's useless is borderline moronic. It has a very basic use

blake won the norris with a -3 rating. its possible.

NHL coaches? OK buddy, great poll. It's not a logical fallacy to cede completely to experts or anything. Could it be that they all knew that if they said a guy on the last place team who was minus 19 that they would be laughed at?

Obviously if they were being honest, they would have said OEL.
- James_Tanner

That response is so idiotic, it doesn't really require a retort. But making you look stupid is so fun and easy, I'll continue

Karlsson had the most votes, and he plays for a non playoff team

Sooooo...your arrogance is only surpassed by your simple-mindedness

Why do you think plus minus is so irrelevant? I mean, I agree it's a pretty bad stat. But I also think that there's a little value there where the league leaders in that stat are guys that are defensively responsible, play a lot of minutes (therefore are on the ice for a lot of goals for), play on good teams, and generally have a reputation of being some of the top two-way players in the league.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, for the players with the worst plus minus in the league, I think these players aren't really as bad as the stat indicates. But they do play on terrible defensive teams, which in part is due to their lack of defensive ability. I mean, the top 5 worst plus minus players are Yakupov, Kessel, Bozak, JVR, and Risto. You mean to tell me there's not a correlation with how bad their teams are defensively, their plus minus, and how many minutes they play?

The stat can be skewed because a lot of it depends on what other players are on the ice...but that's the exact same thing as individual players' Corsi.
- rangerdanger94

Put Kessel on the Rangers, he's a plus player. Put OEL on any Playoff team, same thing. It's a dumb stat that no one respects. You act like it's just me.

Put Kessel on the Rangers, he's a plus player. Put OEL on any Playoff team, same thing. It's a dumb stat that no one respects. You act like it's just me.
- James_Tanner

I agree that Kessel on the Rangers is likely a plus player, as would OEL be. People say the stat is supposed to be a proxy for a player's defensive ability, and I don't think it's accurate in that regard. I think there's still value in the stat though. It demonstrates what players are doing well in a successful team's system.

But you can really make the same argument for Corsi. You put Jake Muzzin on the Oilers and he's going to have a sub-.500 CF%. So would Bergeron.

Put Kessel on the Rangers, he's a plus player. Put OEL on any Playoff team, same thing. It's a dumb stat that no one respects. You act like it's just me.
- James_Tanner

Like many stats it's relative. Having a bad +/- relative to your teammates can be an indicator of bad play.

Like any...other..statistic.. there are other factors that come into play

I agree that Kessel on the Rangers is likely a plus player, as would OEL be. People say the stat is supposed to be a proxy for a player's defensive ability, and I don't think it's accurate in that regard. I think there's still value in the stat though. It demonstrates what players are doing well in a successful team's system.

But you can really make the same argument for Corsi. You put Jake Muzzin on the Oilers and he's going to have a sub-.500 CF%. So would Bergeron.
- rangerdanger94

Your best line of 2016/17 took a hit with the Duclair to Phoenix trade eh?

I think OEL looks like a really good player, top 10 D man in the league, but I dont think he deserves the Norris. Hockey is a team sport, and for a player to prove he's the best at his position, I think the team has to be at least down to the wire for a playoff spot. That's when players truly prove how good they are, playing meaningful hockey and still being able to perform at the highest level. I'm sure he would be able to be a frontrunner if he was playing on a contender, but until he proves it, I dont see him deserving the trophy more than Doughty or Weber. There's just not enough proof that he deserves it.

Oliver Ekman-Larsson is NOT a Norris Trophy candidate, let alone a top ten defender. He cannot elevate the play of his teammates to a higher level. He's not a Lidstrom or a Doughty or a Keith or a Chara or a Blake even. He's a (frank)ing overrated joke.

Oliver Ekman-Larsson is NOT a Norris Trophy candidate, let alone a top ten defender. He cannot elevate the play of his teammates to a higher level. He's not a Lidstrom or a Doughty or a Keith or a Chara or a Blake even. He's a (frank)ing overrated joke.
- TokenBlack

Now this is funny

James Tanner: OEL Ties Franchise Record - Deserves Norris Trophy
Oliver Ekman-Larson leads the NHL with 23 goals by a defenseman.
- James_Tanner

Oliver Ekman-Larsson is NOT a Norris Trophy candidate, let alone a top ten defender. He cannot elevate the play of his teammates to a higher level. He's not a Lidstrom or a Doughty or a Keith or a Chara or a Blake even. He's a (frank)ing overrated joke.
- TokenBlack

This x 1,000,000

I would call him Jultz lite

Your best line of 2016/17 took a hit with the Duclair to Phoenix trade eh?
- mykokes

Yes.

Weber should have at least two Norris trophies by now, but he plays for a small market team and his name is not Chara or Lidstrom. That being the case, he doesn't deserve the award this year. I'm not saying he isn't one of the 4-5 best D-men in the league. And I bet 80% of GM's out there would make him the first D pick on their team in an open draft. But his own D partner (Roman Josi) has outplayed him this year, so I don't see how he can win the award.

I would probably vote it Doughty, Karlsson, Josi. And I know I'm a Preds homer, but Josi has been just awesome this year. He's got a great two-way game, but has been even better than Weber in his own end.
- holycow_75

Interesting article about Weber using things like stats and facts.

http://www.hockeyprospect...bers-poor-relative-corsi/

Oliver Ekman-Larsson is NOT a Norris Trophy candidate, let alone a top ten defender. He cannot elevate the play of his teammates to a higher level. He's not a Lidstrom or a Doughty or a Keith or a Chara or a Blake even. He's a (frank)ing overrated joke.
- TokenBlack

And you wonder why you are the first one killed in horror movies.

Interesting article about Weber using things like stats and facts.

http://www.hockeyprospect...bers-poor-relative-corsi/
- Dangles13

Good article. It's why you can't just look at any stat in a one dimensional fashion & think it's the golden star that makes player A better than player B. Weber & Josi play every important minute for the Preds & face the best competition in the league. One other thing to keep in mind as we've seen Weber's point production fall off slightly his season is that Laviolette is not playing him as many shifts on the PP. He's using that time to get him an extra minute of rest. If he played first unit PP minutes, he'd probably have another 5-10 points. That said, I still don't think he or Josi are the most deserving of the Norris.

Interesting article about Weber using things like stats and facts.

http://www.hockeyprospect...bers-poor-relative-corsi/
- Dangles13

This is a great article

NHL coaches? OK buddy, great poll. It's not a logical fallacy to cede completely to experts or anything. Could it be that they all knew that if they said a guy on the last place team who was minus 19 that they would be laughed at?

Obviously if they were being honest, they would have said OEL.
- James_Tanner

now you're trolling your own thread.

Your best line of 2016/17 took a hit with the Duclair to Phoenix trade eh?
- mykokes

don't even bother, now that he's been traded, he's a prospect that'll likely never make it big in the NHL as per that troll

don't even bother, now that he's been traded, he's a prospect that'll likely never make it big in the NHL as per that troll
- Isles_since_6

Good article. It's why you can't just look at any stat in a one dimensional fashion & think it's the golden star that makes player A better than player B. Weber & Josi play every important minute for the Preds & face the best competition in the league. One other thing to keep in mind as we've seen Weber's point production fall off slightly his season is that Laviolette is not playing him as many shifts on the PP. He's using that time to get him an extra minute of rest. If he played first unit PP minutes, he'd probably have another 5-10 points. That said, I still don't think he or Josi are the most deserving of the Norris.
- holycow_75

Another neat piece here by McKenzie.

http://www.tsn.ca/talent/...ours-and-mcdavid-1.249213

Interesting article about Weber using things like stats and facts.

http://www.hockeyprospect...bers-poor-relative-corsi/
- Dangles13

It was an interesting article. I don't really agree with the premise though. For instance, yes, it's probably true - or at least partially - what he is saying, but who cares?

For instance, every top D probably plays similar minutes. Second, its coaches deployment, it obviously makes a huge difference, don't get me wrong, but in the end, it's the exact same thing as me saying OEL would have more points if he had better players in his lineup or Kadri would be close to 70 points if he got PP time and had better wingers.

Being true doesn't make up for reality.

But it's interesting article. Except for the phone analogy which was lame, but still, thanks for pointing it out.

Interesting article about Weber using things like stats and facts.

http://www.hockeyprospect...bers-poor-relative-corsi/
- Dangles13

It was an interesting article. I don't really agree with the premise though. For instance, yes, it's probably true - or at least partially - what he is saying, but who cares?

For instance, every top D probably plays similar minutes. Second, its coaches deployment, it obviously makes a huge difference, don't get me wrong, but in the end, it's the exact same thing as me saying OEL would have more points if he had better players in his lineup or Kadri would be close to 70 points if he got PP time and had better wingers.

Being true doesn't make up for reality.

But it's interesting article. Except for the phone analogy which was lame, but still, thanks for pointing it out.