That was the 1991 Canada Cup - not an NHL event
- LeftCoaster

All right, let's not start nitpicking lol. I believe the Canada Cup was at least partially organized and overseen by the NHL, no? Even if that wasn't the case, Suter was an American and he and Gretzky played against each other regularly. He knew very well who he was cross-checking viciously into the boards, and that there would be repercussions once he was back with his league team - ones that had nothing to do with the NHL or NHL protecting Gretzky.

I'm sure if one looks through the archives there are quite a few other incidents which Gretzky was involved in. Just a quick look on google and there was this:

"March 22, 1990. He was checked from behind by winger Alan Kerr and went, head-first, into the chest of New York defenseman Ken Baumgartner. The lower-back injury sidelined Gretzky for three of the Kings' 10 playoff games.

Again, please note I'm not denying Lemeiux's stance as one of the all time greats. However, as also noted, you are either in the Gretzky can do no wrong camp or in the Lemieuex can do no wrong camp. And the arguments for who was better will forever be discussed with passion without any sort of resolution.

Let's just say we were fortunate enough to watch two of the most amazing players the league has ever seen.

Paul Kariya as well
- Nighthawk

Suter, for all his talents (he was actually a decent player), seemed like he was one of those 'quiet' goons, who picked his moments and usually feasted on smaller players (reminds me of Phaneuf and how he literally starts drooling if there is a smaller winger with his head down coming across the middle). His blatant and vicious crosscheck on Kariya (hmmm, seems to be a pattern here) says it all about what kind of mindset this guy had. I think he will forever be remembered as the guy who almost ended Gretzky's career (and may have done the same thing with Kariya)

P.S. to respond to your comments about Lemiuex and Gretzky yesterday, Gretzky had to put up with the same clutch and grab aspects as Lemieux (especially in the second half of his career). In any event, we could argue about who is better for hours on end. You are either in the Lemieux or Gretzky camp. For me, Lemieux was the better of the two one on one but he didn't have the same overall vision that Gretzky did. I also feel Gretzky made those around him much better than Lemieux (although Lemieux did so as well, just not to the same extent)

My point the other day being, however, had nothing to do with their actual play. It was with respect to a comment about how the better players seem to be adept at whining more. And with that I gave examples that even Gretzky and Lemieux were whiners at times (both equally so).

And your conspiracy theory about Gretzky being protected by the league has no merit. I guess Gary Suter didn't get the memo when he viciously crosschecked Gretzky into the boards three feet away and almost destroyed his career.
- Zogg

Some fair points and I agree Lemieux was the better of the two. When Gretz's #'s really started to dwindle was around '92 in the clutch/grab era where Lemieux remained super consistent thru this time right up to his Cancer issues around '97. This is a big difference maker for me as Lemieux was able to put up massive #'s through that era with players literally draped all over him for years. IMO Wayne had it pretty easy with Semenko and Messier patroling out there (which Lemieux never had) plus the 'no hit Gretzky' unwritten rule which I do believe existed.

What was the name of the St Louis player that hit Wayne clean back in the early 80's? Just corked him. I think they thought Wayne may have been concussed on a clean hit and that STL player NEVER played another game in the NHL. Blacklisted by the league. I just can't remember his name. Once that had been established it wasn't the supposed fact that Wayne was 'too hard to hit', it was the fact that if players took clean shots at Wayne and were successful they may never play another game in the NHL. Many occasions where players had Wayne lined up and they just 'pulled away'. Sure the Semenko factor was massive but there were other elements at play. And this 'conspiracy' has been talked about by many including NHL players not just me.




An yes you are right they were both whiners.

That was the 1991 Canada Cup - not an NHL event
- LeftCoaster

Precisely. International rules very different back then.

Suter wouldn't have dreamt about doing that to Wayne in NHL play.

Nurse will be up next season and Klefbom is showing signs of breaking out. Schultz aint no bust yet as he would be the leading scoring Dman if he was on the Canucks. They have a few decent prospects and a smart signing in the offseason can get that D back to some respectability. No one is saying it's going to be a Flames D turnaround situation but they can be better with a few smart moves. Plus a goalie signing is most likely imminent.

Most claimed Wideman was a bust in Calgary...Kris Russell was too small, Brodie too soft and Giordano will never be a NO 1 guy...look at them now.
- LordHumungous

You're speculating the same way Oilers management has for the past few seasons: the players we have will be 1 year older and therefore better, new call-ups will provide a boost, we'll sign an FA or two in the summer to provide a steady presence, and we'll sign a new goalie.

1) Waiting for their draft picks to blossom into stars hasn't worked and they've been waiting for a while.
2) New call-ups haven't improved their overall situation to date
3) Signing key FAs has been elusive for that franchise. They got Shultz and Ference on the back-end which hasn't helped and got rid of one of their better Dmen in Petry who's playing well in MTL now.
4) They signed Scrivens and Fasth which has been underwhelming to say the least. They let Dubnyk go cuz it was all his fault only to see him light it up at MIN.

There is nothing a few touch-ups with a wait and see attitude will provide to that franchise. They need a restructure of approach starting from the very top.

Some fair points and I agree Lemieux was the better of the two. When Gretz's #'s really started to dwindle was around '92 in the clutch/grab era where Lemieux remained super consistent thru this time right up to his Cancer issues around '97. This is a big difference maker for me as Lemieux was able to put up massive #'s through that era with players literally draped all over him for years. IMO Wayne had it pretty easy with Semenko and Messier patroling out there (which Lemieux never had) plus the 'no hit Gretzky' unwritten rule which I do believe existed.

What was the name of the St Louis player that hit Wayne clean back in the early 80's? Just corked him. I think they thought Wayne may have been concussed on a clean hit and that STL player NEVER played another game in the NHL. Blacklisted by the league. I just can't remember his name. Once that had been established it wasn't the supposed fact that Wayne was 'too hard to hit', it was the fact that if players took clean shots at Wayne and were successful they may never play another game in the NHL. Many occasions where players had Wayne lined up and they just 'pulled away'. Sure the Semenko factor was massive but there were other elements at play. And this 'conspiracy' has been talked about by many including NHL players not just me.






An yes you are right they were both whiners.
- LordHumungous

lol, I see what you did there. Nope, Gretzky was the all time greatest *insert nya nya nya nya nya na here" lol. That said, well, at least we agree on something as concerns the whining aspect.

As far as the conspiracy theories, they were just that. In order to pull off something like that, it would take immense resources and the involvement of ALL teams and managers (you don't think this wouldn't unravel in their faces at some point in time? that would have come out by now and confirmed that was the case).

Managers can barely handle running their own team let alone adhering some sort of unwritten rule of conduct as concerns one player. It's simply too far fetched. What I do believe, though, and as you touched on, players were a LOT more afraid to take runs on Gretzky by the presence of both McSorely and Semenko (just for the record, Lemieux was a big boy and he could handle himself quite well).

And frankly, we need to get back to that frontier-justice sort of dynamic - I guarantee there would be a lot less injuries. And certainly a lot less 'shenanigans' being perpetrated by little weasels like Marchand, Cooke etc who know they can get away with virtually anything in the current NHL

Precisely. International rules very different back then.

Suter wouldn't have dreamt about doing that to Wayne in NHL play.


- LordHumungous

I don't think a player, during the fast paced and intense action of a hockey game, has either the time or ability to be thinking about the dynamics of the situation, especially the finer points of the difference between International and NHL rules. I'm sure Suter didn't go in the corner and crosscheck Gretzky because he was thinking (hey, it's International Rules, so I have free reign to do what I want!). Suter proved that he was a goon by both the Gretzky hit and then by the vicious crosschecking of Kariya. (I'm sure there are many more situations which perhaps weren't as egregious but still demonstrated what type of player Suter was, if you really take a look on Google etc)

Ok, I think we should put a moratorium on this topic lol as we will be here for days trying to change each other's opinions, which is simply not going to happen

You're speculating the same way Oilers management has for the past few seasons: the players we have will be 1 year older and therefore better, new call-ups will provide a boost, we'll sign an FA or two in the summer to provide a steady presence, and we'll sign a new goalie.

1) Waiting for their draft picks to blossom into stars hasn't worked and they've been waiting for a while.
2) New call-ups haven't improved their overall situation to date
3) Signing key FAs has been elusive for that franchise. They got Shultz and Ference on the back-end which hasn't helped and got rid of one of their better Dmen in Petry who's playing well in MTL now.
4) They signed Scrivens and Fasth which has been underwhelming to say the least. They let Dubnyk go cuz it was all his fault only to see him light it up at MIN.

There is nothing a few touch-ups with a wait and see attitude will provide to that franchise. They need a restructure of approach starting from the very top.
- AlexF

Of course I'm speculating a bit that's part of the deal. I just have seen a few positives there. Eakins is gone and that was a good move. Maybe they will go after a top end coach or maybe stick with Neilson? Who knows but they are better off without Eakins. People called for Ken King's head in Calgary for years much in the way people call for Lowe's head now but if EDM makes some smart moves they may be able to turn it around a bit. Maybe there is a Hartley/Burke style move coming in EDM?

1) Yakupov has looked way better under Neilson as has RNH. Hall is a 90pt player and one of the best wingers in hockey when healthy. Eberle has consistency and softness issues but they can be worked on and Draisaitl is going to work out well there IMO.

2) The call ups I will give you they have not been great. But not much depth either.

3) Pouliot and Purcell were more than decent signings they just failed to find them the proper linemates for consistency and under Eakins were doomed. Under a different coach improvements can be made. Petry was a money issue so they kind of knew that was coming.

4) Most OIL fans always claimed that Dubnyk might be pretty damn good playing behind a good defence and coaching structure...he never had that in EDM nor did he have Sean Burke as a goalie coach in EDM. So there were other factors that made Dubnyk a better goalie outside of EDM but yes one of THE defining factors was that EDM never put a great D in front of him to succeed. I don't care if you are Carey Price playing in front of the EDM D the past few years would have been death for any goalie. So I'm not going to put all that heavy of a load on Scrivens/Fasth even though they are mediocre at best.

I do agree however they need more than 'touch ups'. But again a goalie signing plus the addition of Nurse next year with Klefbom coming around there will be improvements. Yak and Hopkins and Eberle look WAY better away from Eakins. Hall if healthy next year should flirt with 90 pts. Draisaitl coming in...lots of possibilities.

Of course I'm speculating a bit that's part of the deal. I just have seen a few positives there. Eakins is gone and that was a good move. Maybe they will go after a top end coach or maybe stick with Neilson? Who knows but they are better off without Eakins. People called for Ken King's head in Calgary for years much in the way people call for Lowe's head now but if EDM makes some smart moves they may be able to turn it around a bit. Maybe there is a Hartley/Burke style move coming in EDM?

1) Yakupov has looked way better under Neilson as has RNH. Hall is a 90pt player and one of the best wingers in hockey when healthy. Eberle has consistency and softness issues but they can be worked on and Draisaitl is going to work out well there IMO.

2) The call ups I will give you they have not been great. But not much depth either.

3) Pouliot and Purcell were more than decent signings they just failed to find them the proper linemates for consistency and under Eakins were doomed. Under a different coach improvements can be made. Petry was a money issue so they kind of knew that was coming.

4) Most OIL fans always claimed that Dubnyk might be pretty damn good playing behind a good defence and coaching structure...he never had that in EDM nor did he have Sean Burke as a goalie coach in EDM. So there were other factors that made Dubnyk a better goalie outside of EDM but yes one of THE defining factors was that EDM never put a great D in front of him to succeed. I don't care if you are Carey Price playing in front of the EDM D the past few years would have been death for any goalie. So I'm not going to put all that heavy of a load on Scrivens/Fasth even though they are mediocre at best.

I do agree however they need more than 'touch ups'. But again a goalie signing plus the addition of Nurse next year with Klefbom coming around there will be improvements. Yak and Hopkins and Eberle look WAY better away from Eakins. Hall if healthy next year should flirt with 90 pts. Draisaitl coming in...lots of possibilities.
- LordHumungous

All I'm saying is that I've seen this movie before and it doesn't have a happy ending. They've had a merry-go-round of coaches and none have been able to propel this team out of the cellar so it's not all on the bench boss. There are just so many problems with that organization that one summer won't fix it or even get it moving in the right direction. I'm expecting more of the same next year.

All I'm saying is that I've seen this movie before and it doesn't have a happy ending. They've had a merry-go-round of coaches and none have been able to propel this team out of the cellar so it's not all on the bench boss. There are just so many problems with that organization that one summer won't fix it or even get it moving in the right direction. I'm expecting more of the same next year.
- AlexF

And I hate to say it, but there is a possibility that things can even get worse (particularly, due to the upcoming changes in the draft structure etc). If they can't get their team together with all of these high draft picks, where does that leave them? They seem to be constantly dealing from a position of weakness, so the trade route is also not necessarily going to help. I don't really know if anyone can pin-point what the hell is going on in Edmonton, and what the solution might be, other then the dreaded ''remain patience' stance

Take it to the Oiler blog. Lets talk hockey here.

We only have the Higgins/Bonino/Vrbata line scoring consistently (and contribution from the defence). Baertschi will hopefully spark the fourth line which has gotten ice cold lately:

Kenins: 0 points in 9 games (1 point in his last 13)
Horvat: 0 points in 7 games
Hansen: 1 point in 10 games
- EastVan

Kenins does need to sit, Baertschi should get a shot with Bo, itll be entertaining, kenins hasnt done anything to impress in awhile, lots of give aways

Kenins does need to sit, Baertschi should get a shot with Bo, itll be entertaining, kenins hasnt done anything to impress in awhile, lots of give aways
- phyllee

Really looking forward to see what he can bring - from all accounts (and that includes historical data), he seems like a keeper

Really looking forward to see what he can bring - from all accounts (and that includes historical data), he seems like a keeper
- Zogg

If hes a good sniper, and Bo the all around player he is, and Hansens speed, that line could be very much a second line next year. But thats a big if

If hes a good sniper, and Bo the all around player he is, and Hansens speed, that line could be very much a second line next year. But thats a big if
- phyllee

Big if, but still nice to know that is an option going forward, which is something the Canucks haven't had much of the past year and a half. Just knowing you can shake things up a little without drastically affecting the overall productivity/on-ice-play is a huge positive

Nucker, once the rule changes are agreed upon, can you post them in the Yahoo message boards and explain how they'll affect the league please?

Kenins does need to sit, Baertschi should get a shot with Bo, itll be entertaining, kenins hasnt done anything to impress in awhile, lots of give aways
- phyllee

I also would like to see Kenins sit, he has flubbed so many point blank shots, continuously gives the puck away, what positives he brings are outweighed by the negatives.

Let him sit, let Sven play a few games, possibly Kenins comes back improved

Shouldn't you be at church today?
- Marwood

??

Really looking forward to see what he can bring - from all accounts (and that includes historical data), he seems like a keeper
- Zogg

I'm glad that I picked him up as a NA when I did.

I'm glad that I picked him up as a NA when I did.
- Gullzy

well done, kimosabi see? this is where the NA/Bench Spot works like it's supposed to

And if he sucks it'll still explode...except with hate and panic.
- Nucker101

...and Vantel calling for him to be traded or bought out.

well done, kimosabi see? this is where the NA/Bench Spot works like it's supposed to
- Zogg

Thank you bud! I didn't manage to secure a playoff berth this season, but at least I'll have a chance to see how he performs with the big team before next season.

Thank you bud! I didn't manage to secure a playoff berth this season, but at least I'll have a chance to see how he performs with the big team before next season.
- Gullzy

Me thinks you have a quality asset, and I can see him making the line-up out of camp (and making some noise as well)

If hes a good sniper, and Bo the all around player he is, and Hansens speed, that line could be very much a second line next year. But thats a big if
- phyllee

I think he's more of a playmaker, at least that's how he defines his play. All in all I think his puck skills and speed will be a nice addition. Hopefully he puts up some points and sticks around

I think he's more of a playmaker, at least that's how he defines his play. All in all I think his puck skills and speed will be a nice addition. Hopefully he puts up some points and sticks around
- Whiskey-Tango

10 or less
10-12
12-14
14-16 minutes baerstchi plays tomorrow?
I think 10-12.