- geta02it

Did he miss the net on that shot or is it more about Ovi's back-check? He looks like a zombie on skates.

This was your best post post ever....I actually agree with all of it.

- Jeropotato

Thanks. I think. I never know with you haha.

Plus Minus is a discredited stat and is meaningless.
- James_Tanner

Bahahaha, you do realize that a lot of the fundamental ways that make +/- discredited apply just as much to corsi right? This is so sad. Plus minus is essentially the corsi for goals as opposed to shots. Call it possession efficiency if you want. How can you put that much weight on corsi and then proceed to call +/- meaningless and still sleep at night? Wooooooow.

Note: Not trying to comment about the importance of either stat. Just that you can't call one meaningless and use the other as they key to forming your opinion. That just makes you a very confused person about the numbers you are looking at...

Did he miss the net on that shot or is it more about Ovi's back-check? He looks like a zombie on skates.
- bloatedmosquito

turnover in the other end and that was his backcheck...was funny as hell (and yes from a couple of years back)... the whole play is out there but I was trying to make a point.

Hate to break it to you dude, but your little circle jerk of friends doesn't constitute "good hockey people"

you're a punching bag because you write the most asinine bullpoop. It used to be Cloutier, now it's you.
- SpoiledByOil

93% chance he is Cloutier. Hands down the worst blogger on here. One of the most ignorant, arrogant, useless hockey minds out there

- geta02it

Bahahaha, you do realize that a lot of the fundamental ways that make +/- discredited apply just as much to corsi right? This is so sad. Plus minus is essentially the corsi for goals as opposed to shots. Call it possession efficiency if you want. How can you put that much weight on corsi and then proceed to call +/- meaningless and still sleep at night? Wooooooow.

Note: Not trying to comment about the importance of either stat. Just that you can't call one meaningless and use the other as they key to forming your opinion. That just makes you a very confused person about the numbers you are looking at...
- RonPielep

Agreed, I was going to make a similar post. I am not an old school stat purist, but it has merit, and worst case is an easy-to-track indicator that you should look closer at why a player is on the ice for more goals than the team gets. After all it is the point of the game to score more than your opponent, not have more shots

Did he miss the net on that shot or is it more about Ovi's back-check? He looks like a zombie on skates.
- bloatedmosquito

No that was goal in game 6 of the ECQF. The gif is about the great 8's back check.

Only makes him more deserving IMO.

Most versatile player in the NHL.
- Byfuglien Ate Me

playing as a forward makes him more deserving for the Norris?

wha?

Wow didn't realize Tavares was having such a good year. But in the end, I'd still go with crybaby as #1

No that was goal in game 6 of the ECQF. The gif is about the great 8's back check.
- tomburton99

Obviously they aint paying him enough. He needs more motivation.

Agreed, I was going to make a similar post. I am not an old school stat purist, but it has merit, and worst case is an easy-to-track indicator that you should look closer at why a player is on the ice for more goals than the team gets. After all it is the point of the game to score more than your opponent, not have more shots
- WhiteLie

Yeah, I'm not trying to defend it as a stat or compare it to any other stats. But if Tanner worships corsi so much and thinks +/- is meaningless, I think he is a very confused individual because one can draw parallels to corsi for almost all of the fundamental criticisms of +/-.

Well, that's fair. To be honest with you, I've never actually seen a hockey game.

But in all honesty, I do think people base things a little much on reputation. It may not be fair to say Weber is overrated, but there are legitimately people who think that and I don't think they're idiots. Also, a guy I really like to read, Steve Burtch, who is a math teacher, did an exhaustive analysis and said Muzzin was the most effective defenseman in the NHL. Now, that doesn't make it true, but it's interesting and he's a good hockey guy as far as I'm concerned.
- James_Tanner

You wonder why people are ripping on you all the time... well I'll tell you the sarcasm doesn't help, James.

And what argument could one make to say that Shea Weber is overrated? What does he do out on the ice that would make one think that? This guy does everything right... and I mean everything. He's a heart and soul type player that hits(clean and hard), fights, scores big goals at clutch times, can thread the needle with a pass, break out passes are always crisp and on the tape, he can rush the puck as well as any of the top D, he has one of the hardest and most accurate shots in the league from the blueline, players HATE playing against him, he blocks shots and stands up for every single one of his teammates when the time is right... his team currently sits in 1st place in the NHL and he already has 14 goals and 42 points on a Nashville team that has always been considered a defence-first team... I could even go into the finer detailed aspects of being a defensemen in this league but I don't even need to at this point.

I also think that while that might be an interesting read, I think that point alone proves why just looking at numbers is a terrible way to judge players. His analysis said Muzzin is the most effective D in the nhl? Anyone who really knows the game would immediately start bursting out laughing if you told them that. Muzzin is a good player but NO WHERE near close to the most effective D in the NHL.

I think if it were decided today, it would be Nash. However, I don't think there has been a more exciting player to watch this season than Tarasenko.

This guy does everything right... and I mean everything. He's a heart and soul type player that hits(clean and hard), fights, scores big goals at clutch times, can thread the needle with a pass, break out passes are always crisp and on the tape, he can rush the puck as well as any of the top D, he has one of the hardest and most accurate shots in the league from the blueline, players HATE playing against him, he blocks shots and stands up for every single one of his teammates when the time is right...
- Pleiadian4

you almost forgot to mention that he can smash a hell of a Zetterberg melon into the glass whenever he deems it necessary.

I am not sold at all. Add up his advanced stats to determine he is a defensive beast, factor in hypotheticals to determine how much better he would be offensively with different linemates, kind of like saying my exacting formula for making Kool-aid is great, but, would taste even better if I visualized love energy entering into each saccharine granule.

I think there should be a new trophy awarded to players scoring the best Corsi/Fenwick.

The Hart should go to the most 'valuable' player of one single team in the league, and that team should be in the playoffs, otherwise how valuable are they if they miss the cut. Yes LA are hot right now but they still aren't in.

Does advanced stats factor in Goalies and Defencemen commensurately?

I am not sold at all. Add up his advanced stats to determine he is a defensive beast, factor in hypotheticals to determine how much better he would be offensively with different linemates, kind of like saying my exacting formula for making Kool-aid is great, but, would taste even better if I visualized love energy entering into each saccharine granule.

I think there should be a new trophy awarded to players scoring the best Corsi/Fenwick.

The Hart should go to the most 'valuable' player of one single team in the league, and that team should be in the playoffs, otherwise how valuable are they if they miss the cut. Yes LA are hot right now but they still aren't in.

Does advanced stats factor in Goalies and Defencemen commensurately?
- jazzca1974

actually, they are in atm. SJ is out.

You wonder why people are ripping on you all the time... well I'll tell you the sarcasm doesn't help, James.

And what argument could one make to say that Shea Weber is overrated? What does he do out on the ice that would make one think that? This guy does everything right... and I mean everything. He's a heart and soul type player that hits(clean and hard), fights, scores big goals at clutch times, can thread the needle with a pass, break out passes are always crisp and on the tape, he can rush the puck as well as any of the top D, he has one of the hardest and most accurate shots in the league from the blueline, players HATE playing against him, he blocks shots and stands up for every single one of his teammates when the time is right... his team currently sits in 1st place in the NHL and he already has 14 goals and 42 points on a Nashville team that has always been considered a defence-first team... I could even go into the finer detailed aspects of being a defensemen in this league but I don't even need to at this point.

I also think that while that might be an interesting read, I think that point alone proves why just looking at numbers is a terrible way to judge players. His analysis said Muzzin is the most effective D in the nhl? Anyone who really knows the game would immediately start bursting out laughing if you told them that. Muzzin is a good player but NO WHERE near close to the most effective D in the NHL.
- Pleiadian4

Giordano? 11 goals and 47 points on a team that by Tanners estimation can't maintain f-all...

I believe you have made a strong case for Kopitar being considered for the "Selke" award. Your own stats and collection of other data strongly supports that Kopitar should not win the "Hart" but rather any number of other players. An even more difficult challenge that you created for yourself is that the title of this blog is "who is the best forward in the NHL this year?" and you break down a group forwards and then conclude that Kopitar deserves the Hart. The Hart isn't awarded to the best forward in the NHL. Hell, it isn't even given simply to the best player in the NHL. It is awarded to the player that is most valuable, or some even say most valuable to his team. Kopitar is neither the best player, the most valuable, or even the most valuable to his team. There is good reason to believe that Kopitar wouldn't win this award even if it was simply for the forwards to win. Even Doughty has a better chance to win the Hart than Kopitar and they play on the same team. Drew will not win the Hart, he won't even win the Norris, that should be Weber or Giordano, who both should also be considered for the Hart.
The biggest challenge with analytics is that some people don't recognize them at all, but worse might be those who have embraced them and have lost sight of the actual game on the ice. If corsi and Fenwick and PDO are so perfect at determining exactly how things will play out, we should just log on to an analytics site at the end of the season and award the Stanley Cup to the theoretically best statistical team. Why even play the most exciting playoff games in ALL of Sports. Then you can apologize to Anzi Kopitar for taking back his 2 Stanley Cup Rings too, because the Kings were far from being the best statistical team in 2012 or 2014 and still they won. That's why the games are actually played on the ice and not determined by arrogant pocket protector owners on a spread sheet!

FYI - I read your blogs all the time and generally enjoy them. I appreciate that you regularly post thought provoking ideas for others to consume. I am not intending to attack you with this reply, but I simply don't agree and am posting an alternative opinion and argument.
- InSutterWeTrust

I had the exact same thought...Selke

actually, they are in atm. SJ is out.
- Stu17

What I mean is they aren't 'in' like Nashville 'in'.

So nobody is going to ask him who should win the Hart trophy? Why would you not give the Hart trophy to the most valuable player to his team?

At the end of the day goals win games, possession is nice but if it doesn't translate to goals then your team doesn't win and the other guy across the ice who is still driving possession, but maybe not as well as you, scores more goals then he has probably helped his team win more.

At the end of the day goals win games, possession is nice but if it doesn't translate to goals then your team doesn't win and the other guy across the ice who is still driving possession, but maybe not as well as you, scores more goals then he has probably helped his team win more.
- Dangles13

But that's just a statistical anomaly and eventually we will see LA at the top of the standings and Calgary at the bottom...

Goals don't win games, imprecise statistical measures of probability do...

Yeah, I'm not trying to defend it as a stat or compare it to any other stats. But if Tanner worships corsi so much and thinks +/- is meaningless, I think he is a very confused individual because one can draw parallels to corsi for almost all of the fundamental criticisms of +/-.
- RonPielep

There are roughly 5 goals in an NHL game and 50 shots, so you get 10x the data. I am not confused. You ought to just Google it.

But that's just a statistical anomaly and eventually we will see LA at the top of the standings and Calgary at the bottom...

Goals don't win games, imprecise statistical measures of probability do...
- RonPielep

I know you're being sarcastic, but the data is irrefutable.