Location: When youre 7 pages behind Dont bother catching up, you will never get that time back - Codes1087 Joined: 07.26.2010
Feb 19 @ 5:33 PM ET
I would think it's quite obvious: While he's racking up the points, he's also been incredibly lucky. For comparison, at 5v5 he's doubling Ovechkin in shooting percentage and has like 12 more goals. - James_Tanner
So you want to award Kopitar for a medicore season where he happens to be on the ice for more shots for than against? Cant that be considered as lucky as getting 18% of your shots go in?
Honestly, Kopitar is so far off the reservation on some of the stats you posted but you skewed so HEAVILY toward possession and Corsi that you force fed the award to Kopitar based on primarily that
Look, i think Kopitar is a phenomenal player
But this whole he is underrated for his great two way play is really OVERRATING him
defensively is he any better than someone like Toews, Datsyuk, Bergeron, Backes, etc
marginally, at best
Offensively, is he better than any of them? No, and in most cases hes the worst of the that group
Kopitar is one of the best all around forwards in the game, but im sorry, you cant say at 1C scoring at 65 pt pace deserves the Hart or is the best forward in the game.
I get the elite possession stuff, but until he picks up his game offensively, he is nothing more than an elite two way player, not Hart/best forward material - FourFeathers773
Note to readers: This is what a well reasoned , well thought out response looks like.
In response, I hear what you're saying, but I think Kopitars low shooting percentage and subpar wingers account for his 65 point pace.
Ov has Backstrom. Getzlaf has Perry, Tavares has Okposo, etc etc etc. Kopitar has a skeleton known as Gaborik and Brown. I think if you make all the adjustments to try to level the field, it's fair to call Kopitar the best. Is it accurate? Hey, that's up to you. But you at least make a real good point on why I am probably wrong.
Okay,thats fine but you should be aware some oeople find it insulting.....and we all know how upset you get when you feel you've been insulted. - Jeropotato
Really? Do I seem like a guy who is easily insulted? Consider this, I am called a moron on this site roughly eleven times per day, even though in real life no one has ever once insulted my intelligence even once, for my entire life, as far as I know.
I really am probably the least insultable person in the world. I mean, this place is basically just an HBO roast with me in the role of Tom Arnold.
Note to readers: This is what a well reasoned , well thought out response looks like.
In response, I hear what you're saying, but I think Kopitars low shooting percentage and subpar wingers account for his 65 point pace.
Ov has Backstrom. Getzlaf has Perry, Tavares has Okposo, etc etc etc. Kopitar has a skeleton known as Gaborik and Brown. I think if you make all the adjustments to try to level the field, it's fair to call Kopitar the best. Is it accurate? Hey, that's up to you. But you at least make a real good point on why I am probably wrong. - James_Tanner
I see what you are saying, although I wouldn't really call Gaborik sub par by any means. If we are going for best scorer I can't see how there is any argument against OVI, he is the whole team. and this year his defensive play has been awesome as well.
I see what you are saying, although I wouldn't really call Gaborik sub par by any means. If we are going for best scorer I can't see how there is any argument against OVI, he is the whole team. and this year his defensive play has been awesome as well. - Maverick1818
Yes, I love OV. I even got roasted last year when I called him the Hart winner. I agree he has made an amazing defensive improvement. I do seriously think people are underestimating how crazy an almost 59% Corsi is though.
I just think, all round the best three players are Kopitar, Bergeron and Toews and that Kopitar gives you the most O of those guys.
(frank) Corsi and all those so called analytics. Ask Toronto how that poophead Dubas they hired who is all about analytics how that's working for them. If you use these bull poop stats to determine who's a good hockey player, Stop and Stop calling yourself a hockey fan cause your not and watch a (frank)ing game. By the way Tanner I stopped reading when I saw Corsi so I really don't care what your con conclusion was. - RobFlyers#1
Only 2 teams to hire advanced analytic guys over the summer were Edmonton and Toronto
And our advanced stats looked good under Eakins and not as good under Kruger, everyone in the Oilers threads keep trying to tell me that it's just luck
I feel like these stats are making people stupid to actual game play.
Among the top 6 scorers on the Kings this year, Kopitar is the only one who is a minus in the +/- category. I absolutely agree that he is a fantastic two-way forward to put him alone at the top, based on his stats is a bit ridiculous. If anyone should be getting looked at for his two-way play, it should be Ovechkin. A -35 from last year to a +11 this year is pretty impressive. He has elevated his defense immensely while having one of his best offensive seasons. Just my thoughts. - dcetlin
Really? Do I seem like a guy who is easily insulted? Consider this, I am called a moron on this site roughly eleven times per day, even though in real life no one has ever once insulted my intelligence even once, for my entire life, as far as I know.
I really am probably the least insultable person in the world. I mean, this place is basically just an HBO roast with me in the role of Tom Arnold. - James_Tanner
You cried yeaterday about me insulting you and then you insult one of your readers....you got a lot of class.
Location: When youre 7 pages behind Dont bother catching up, you will never get that time back - Codes1087 Joined: 07.26.2010
Feb 19 @ 5:48 PM ET
Really? Do I seem like a guy who is easily insulted? Consider this, I am called a moron on this site roughly eleven times per day, even though in real life no one has ever once insulted my intelligence even once, for my entire life, as far as I know.
I really am probably the least insultable person in the world. I mean, this place is basically just an HBO roast with me in the role of Tom Arnold. - James_Tanner
I think this response is in part due to how loudly analytic people have called out how great "fancy stats" are, but are often thrown out there in the same context analytics criticize the 1-dimensional use of goals, assists and +/- to determine which players are good. You used Corsi as weighing heavily but there are flaws in weighing it more so than points, goals, etc. Also its tough to determine who is the beneficiary of these stats and who is actually bringing those players up. I think Brown is very solid defensively and likely contributes to how high Kopitar's Corsi % is, but its truely hard to know
If you are going to base your decision on who the best D man this year is on Corsi numbers then your just kidding yourself. While corsi can give you useful information on the players, you can not use that to say Doughty has been better than Weber this year. Ask anyone who has watched a majority of the games this year and they will tell you how impressive Weber has been. I'm not saying Doughty hasn't been good because he has, but his season so far hasn't surpassed Weber's.
In the NHL it is all about winning games and Weber has led his team to first place in the west so far with more goals, points and a way better +/- than Doughty. LA will be lucky to even make it into the playoffs this year. But like I said, all stats aside... if you have watched the games and/or ask someone who has I guarantee they say Weber has been the best D-man this year. Hell, ask players on other teams and they will tell you the same thing.
As for the most underappreciated player in the league: you could have that debate about a lot of players in the NHL. A lot of it has to do with the way the media portrays the player - Fans that don't watch the games and just watch the highlights or watch some of the games only see and know what is said about the player from the media's perspective. Yea, Kadri doesn't get a lot of love from a lot of people, and while he hasn't had a bad season and he is still young... he still makes a TON of mistakes out there. I've been a leafs fan my whole life, I've played hockey since I was 5 and I haven't missed more than a handful of leaf games in the past 5-10 years... trust me Kadri has a LONG way to go before he reaches his potential. He has a plethera of offensive talent but the giveaways, lack of backchecking/coverage in his own zone and odd boneheaded play would make me say he isn't in the category of most 'underappreciated' player in the league. - Pleiadian4
yea but these numbers that i read about him on the internet, that also have something to do with his linemates, suggest that i would know better than you, even though i almost never watch him play
Yes, I love OV. I even got roasted last year when I called him the Hart winner. I agree he has made an amazing defensive improvement. I do seriously think people are underestimating how crazy an almost 59% Corsi is though.
I just think, all round the best three players are Kopitar, Bergeron and Toews and that Kopitar gives you the most O of those guys. - James_Tanner
for the hart trophie right now I don't think the convo gets passed Price, OVI and Rinne at least right now
Note to readers: This is what a well reasoned , well thought out response looks like.
In response, I hear what you're saying, but I think Kopitars low shooting percentage and subpar wingers account for his 65 point pace.
Ov has Backstrom. Getzlaf has Perry, Tavares has Okposo, etc etc etc. Kopitar has a skeleton known as Gaborik and Brown. I think if you make all the adjustments to try to level the field, it's fair to call Kopitar the best. Is it accurate? Hey, that's up to you. But you at least make a real good point on why I am probably wrong. - James_Tanner
I hear you on the linemate stuff. To play devils advocate though, a guy like Getlaf (who is my pick for the best forward/Hart) put up 15 pts in the 10 games Perry was out in December with his knee injury, and we know they dont have a bona fide top 6 winger without Perry (guys like beleskey and silfverberg are nice, but they are hardly top line material)
its definitely an interesting debate, do you prefer the 60-70 pt guy who plays elite defense like Bergeron and Kopitar?
Or do you take the PPG+ studs who lack defensively compared to the other guys such as Crosby, Kane, Malkin, OV, etc
Honestly it obviously comes down to other more important factors like what their production means for their team and the system they run. PIT needs Malkin and Crosby to be PPG+ to succeed. CHI and LAK need Toews and Kopitar to be elite two way centers for CHI to match up and succeed. ANA needs Getzlaf to be a beast to raise the play of a rather vanilla ANA roster outside of Perry and Kesler. I do agree Kopitar belong in the conversation and he is very good for what he does for LAK, I just dont think its any better than what some of the other guys listed provide for their team
On a side note JT, I think youre one of the best bloggers on here, keep up the good work
Only 2 teams to hire advanced analytic guys over the summer were Edmonton and Toronto
And our advanced stats looked good under Eakins and not as good under Kruger, everyone in the Oilers threads keep trying to tell me that it's just luck
I feel like these stats are making people stupid to actual game play. - SpoiledByOil
Useful...but not the be all end all. I have yet to see a Corsi stat that differentiates unscreened beachballs from the blue line from point black shots from the slot ....and NO, they dont just "even out" over time. Some great corsi teams have nothing but wussy perimeter players that dont score goals where bad corsi teams win games because they crash the crease, reduce shots against to high volume/low % chances because the defense can close them out the perimeter and force them to make a poopty shot....some good Corsi teams lose because of goaltending and poor shooting %, other bad corsi teams win because of Goaltending and a few hot shooters.
At the end of the day, the game is one by scoring more goals than the other team and keeping the puck out of your net....not who has the puck more.
