I have this convo with Ryan all the time. If we can sit down and look at the stats how can these multi million dollar orgs not use them and see the issues we see.

He thinks Sutter can be moved, I hope he is right, but I just find it hard to see....
- walshy66

I think the professional clubs use analytics differently than the John Doe's of the world. Plus a lot of old school guys scouts that see things that over value intangibles.

Have you ever seen Moneyball when the scouts are in the room talking about how player X has "a good face"...For some reason I can picture some old time hockey scouts discussing Sutter's bloodlines, pedigree, height, and leadership abilities.

third line pieces won't make us a contender in my mind. Our problems are deeper than that. Sometimes you have to admit you aren't in this; move some assets that aren't going to be around next year for picks and prospects and get some cap space. Sorry, up against the cap; we have few assets to trade and our problems are quite obvious. Agree to disagree. This team is no where near a Cup contender. People paying attention know this.
- Oneonta Penguin

Ive been paying attention to hockey for a very long time. This team doesnt look any worse than the one that won in 2009.
I dont see a team in the league we cant beat if Crosby, Malkin and Fleury show up.

Who do you consider the core players? Define a good offseason. Does that mean resigning Martin and or Ehrhoff? Does that mean trading Sutter, Spaling, Kunitz for picks and gain more cap room for free agency? I'm looking at the free agent pool and its not great. There are some names that would be good to have, but let's face it ... Pittsburgh hasn't had a great recent history in attracting impact free agents.
- Oneonta Penguin

We've attracted a bunch of FA's. We arguably got the best Dman this year.

GMJR has only begun to change the team...

I let Martin and Hoff walk. Decent, but not physical....Hoff has been a big disappointment to me.

Trade Sutter and Spaling. Gone are Lappy, Adams

I think the professional clubs use analytics differently than the John Doe's of the world. Plus a lot of old school guys scouts that see things that over value intangibles.

Have you ever seen Moneyball when the scouts are in the room talking about how player X has "a good face"...For some reason I can picture some old time hockey scouts discussing Sutter's bloodlines, pedigree, height, and leadership abilities.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

And I think hockey is still an 'old boys club' with their scouting. Ive seen Moneyball and their refusal to get on board wasn't about the idea being bad but insecurity in their role being replaced.

Its a new tool, FFS use it and make your decisions more informed.

Pro scouts should be all over the advanced stats. Use it to narrow your net then go and watch comparable players and make up your mind for UFA or deadline deals.

Once the net is smaller then you can start to look at those intangibles to see if the player will fit into your system, and your locker room.....

Ive been paying attention to hockey for a very long time. This team doesnt look any worse than the one that won in 2009.
I dont see a team in the league we cant beat if Crosby, Malkin and Fleury show up.
- stackthepads

i agree.

but, i also cannot remember the last time those 3 stars aligned at the same time.

Young-ish rentals dont bother me nearly as much because 1.) we have an opportunity to re-sign them if they fit well and 2.) the guys we're giving up aren't guys I want on the team anyway.

I also dont think the cap will be that big of an issue. Martin, Ehrhoff, Dupuis, are really big question marks but thats like $13M potentially freed up. I mean none of us knows how that will pan out but there our options. Maatta will be back. Pouliot will be even better.

Even if trade Harrington, for instance. Letang, Maatta, Pouliot, Despres, Scuderi, Bortuzzo, Dumoulin is a pretty good lineup and pretty cheap.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Trading assets like a second round pick or Harrington for a rental is counter productive. Young rentals worth trading for certainly have a second round price tag or a Harrington type of tag. The ones that don't have that tag aren't worth trading for.

The cap is always an issue in Pittsburgh. We have been scrounging for pennies to make this cap work for the last XXX years. It's not an envious situation. People are always ready to trade Dumo or Harrington because of this depth in the system. Guess what? The last two years, we have had to use all the depth we have had on D. Start trading it away, your depth goes to hell. We will have two blueliners next year that have pretty extensive injury resumes - Letang and Maatta. Making a foolish deal involving Dumo or Harrington for a rental wouldn't be smart based on what their value is. After those two on the farm, we don't have much of anything on D.

Ive been paying attention to hockey for a very long time. This team doesnt look any worse than the one that won in 2009.
I dont see a team in the league we cant beat if Crosby, Malkin and Fleury show up.
- stackthepads

Lots of stars dont always show up or get cold. Blaming Sid and Geno for everything is oversimplifying, imo. Its a team sport and a long, rough season. Look at their production over the course of the season. We always have a chance with those 3 on our team.

i agree.

but, i also cannot remember the last time those 3 stars aligned at the same time.
- stayinthefnnet

This is true, but at least in the playoffs you know they are going to be giving their best. Some nights this season they just look like they are floating into the playoffs. Tonight for instance neither Crosby nor Malkin looked all that interested in turning the game around.

We've attracted a bunch of FA's. We arguably got the best Dman this year.

GMJR has only begun to change the team...

I let Martin and Hoff walk. Decent, but not physical....Hoff has been a big disappointment to me.

Trade Sutter and Spaling. Gone are Lappy, Adams
- madmike71

So, go shopping and spend the money. Who do you go after?

We haven't attracted impact forwards via free agency in a while it seems. Yes, Ehrhoff, Martin were good signings. Michalek was a disaster.

Lots of stars dont always show up or get cold. Blaming Sid and Geno for everything is oversimplifying, imo. Its a team sport and a long, rough season. Look at their production over the course of the season. We always have a chance with those 3 on our team.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

I didnt intend that post to sound like I was blaming them. I am trying to convey that Crosby and Malkin hitting a hot streak in the playoffs is a very real thing that can happen and either of them hot in the playoffs is a game changer.

Most teams are just praying for their goalie to get hot, we have 3 players that can take over a series.

i agree.

but, i also cannot remember the last time those 3 stars aligned at the same time.
- stayinthefnnet

Your but, summed it up for me. They haven't aligned since ... well we beat Detroit. Since then, its been nothing short of disappointment.

This is true, but at least in the playoffs you know they are going to be giving their best. Some nights this season they just look like they are floating into the playoffs. Tonight for instance neither Crosby nor Malkin looked all that interested in turning the game around.
- stackthepads

they didnt. and thats (frank)ing bothersome.

if they lose that way in the playoffs, then as a fan its a total slap in the face.

i can deal with the losing. not with the apathetic stench that surrounds it.

I didnt intend that post to sound like I was blaming them. I am trying to convey that Crosby and Malkin hitting a hot streak in the playoffs is a very real thing that can happen and either of them hot in the playoffs is a game changer.

Most teams are just praying for their goalie to get hot, we have 3 players that can take over a series.
- stackthepads

thats not it this year in my opinion.

there are a handful of teams that are very good top to bottom. we played one of them tonight.

So, go shopping and spend the money. Who do you go after?

We haven't attracted impact forwards via free agency in a while it seems. Yes, Ehrhoff, Martin were good signings. Michalek was a disaster.
- Oneonta Penguin

Honestly, I'm too tired to dig through all of the options but I'll just say

I focus my savings on a better 3c and one vet D. I'd love to get Boychuk.

I didnt intend that post to sound like I was blaming them. I am trying to convey that Crosby and Malkin hitting a hot streak in the playoffs is a very real thing that can happen and either of them hot in the playoffs is a game changer.

Most teams are just praying for their goalie to get hot, we have 3 players that can take over a series.
- stackthepads

I know, I communicated that poorly... I was agreeing with you

thats not it this year in my opinion.

there are a handful of teams that are very good top to bottom. we played one of them tonight.
- stayinthefnnet

Nothing stinks up a great team like a goalie crapping the bed. Want proof? Ask anyone on this board about 2012. Or the first round of 2013.

Berglund is an odd man out in STL, I would inquire on him as an upgrade for Sutter, then try to get Bergenheim.

Either way, its mid Feb and the past 2 months for this team have been pretty bad. Even with Ehroff coming back I still think this team sucks.
- sammy87

So cheer for a different one, or get into women's golf.

If Crosby HAS to play with Kunitz then it's time to trade Kunitz, send him to the Canucks for Kassian and a 2nd, move Hornquist up to the top line and play Perron on his strong side. I hate it but use the cap savings to bring Jagr back to play with Geno and Comeau on the Second line. Trade Sutter for Vermette, trade a pick and a prospect for Winnick and have Bennet, Vermette Kasian as a third line. The 4th becomes Spalling Lapierre and Downie.

Trading assets like a second round pick or Harrington for a rental is counter productive. Young rentals worth trading for certainly have a second round price tag or a Harrington type of tag. The ones that don't have that tag aren't worth trading for.

The cap is always an issue in Pittsburgh. We have been scrounging for pennies to make this cap work for the last XXX years. It's not an envious situation. People are always ready to trade Dumo or Harrington because of this depth in the system. Guess what? The last two years, we have had to use all the depth we have had on D. Start trading it away, your depth goes to hell. We will have two blueliners next year that have pretty extensive injury resumes - Letang and Maatta. Making a foolish deal involving Dumo or Harrington for a rental wouldn't be smart based on what their value is. After those two on the farm, we don't have much of anything on D.
- Oneonta Penguin

Again, no interest in trading the 2nd rounder.

Those players will help with the cap but 1 of Harrington or Dumo could be traded, imo. We have 4 homegrown top 4 guys next year and overall pretty cheap (Letang, Maatta, Despres, Pouliot). Beyond that we're pretty well set with bottom pairing defenseman, which is where Harrington, Dumoulin, Scuderi, and Bortuzzo will already be duking it out next year anyway. Need more depth, sign someone cheap.

I maintain the premise that Sutter and Harrington could fetch us something nice. GMJR's willingness to trade Sutter is that part I have my doubts.

Again, no interest in trading the 2nd rounder.

Those players will help with the cap but 1 of Harrington or Dumo could be traded, imo. We have 4 homegrown top 4 guys next year and overall pretty cheap (Letang, Maatta, Despres, Pouliot). Beyond that we're pretty well set with bottom pairing defenseman, which is where Harrington, Dumoulin, Scuderi, and Bortuzzo will already be duking it out next year anyway. Need more depth, sign someone cheap.

I maintain the premise that Sutter and Harrington could fetch us something nice. GMJR's willingness to trade Sutter is that part I have my doubts.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

kejew

Honestly, here is where the game is lost. 1-1 Tanger gets 2 handed by OV. No call.


That is all, this is no different than any other game, the Penguins get the shaft.

A 2 man advantage with 5 minutes to play?

I told my Kings fan friend, watch, this slash will snowball into a PP heaven for Washington. His response...no way.

His response at the end of the game, dude...sucks to be a Penguin fan.

It is beyond my grasp to see 35 of 40 games called in favor of the opposition.

This is pure sour grapes 100%. Do your homework..Am I wrong?

Well Kudos to Trotz, he's worked out the Pens to a tee. Close game, start something to set the game off its rails - last game Green started it with Sill for zero reason but to destabilise the Pens & turn the game around. Today, Ovi throws out a slash in the 3rd early again in a close game that's sends the Pens into a fury. Well played Barry, can't win through a skill game so start the crap & win dirty, but a win is a win.

Pens have to learn, play hard but not stupid. Caps looked for poop & got away with it, then played cool once they ignited the fuse - typical agitating play. Maybe next time against them we just start the crap early & see how that plays out - you gotta do what you gotta do. Teams aren't classy in this league so sometimes lowering yourself down to their standards is the only way.

Forget relying on the zebs, it's a game by game scenario with them. Any rule book they may have glanced at is certainly only there as a guide & not a principal form of regulation - & I say that for all games not just the Pens.

You know what this team needs.. more D.... bc more D means more scoring apparently.... dumbasses
- nh4442

Not sure why they are looking to add another D unless they intend shipping 1 out, but the existing D scoring more would be great.

Well Kudos to Trotz, he's worked out the Pens to a tee. Close game, start something to set the game off its rails - last game Green started it with Sill for zero reason but to destabilise the Pens & turn the game around. Today, Ovi throws out a slash in the 3rd early again in a close game that's sends the Pens into a fury. Well played Barry, can't win through a skill game so start the crap & win dirty, but a win is a win.

Pens have to learn, play hard but not stupid. Caps looked for poop & got away with it, then played cool once they ignited the fuse - typical agitating play. Maybe next time against them we just start the crap early & see how that plays out - you gotta do what you gotta do. Teams aren't classy in this league so sometimes lowering yourself down to their standards is the only way.

Forget relying on the zebs, it's a game by game scenario with them. Any rule book they may have glanced at is certainly only there as a guide & not a principal form of regulation - & I say that for all games not just the Pens.
- Aussiepenguin

I don't know who is supposed to lower themselves to what standard. Pittsburgh has a bunch of rats on the roster and the nhl's pim leader. Malkin is tied for 14th in the league with 23 minor penalties. The team clearly has a discipline problem which has been a major way to exploit and undermine the Penguins since, say, 2010. I'm not on board with how the nhl isn't classy enough for the Penguins when the wings and lightnings of the world do just fine.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LN-b03Fn4b0

Still appropriate after all this time.
- Emperor Filonius

Yes very nice. Is that the 1994 Pens in chorus?