I'm no going to back read because I already know what's there, just like I knew last night would go as it did.

The team has some talent, but they basically suck. Until they all start showing up and actually give a damn nothing will change. That's the minimum needed.

I hope things are different 3 years from now.

after seeing the Doom line the fans will be ready
- vejim

I would even take Primeau back right now. Its true this team lacks a true leader. Giroux does it with his play on the ice but there isnt anyone in the locker room everyone else wants to go to battle for, follow.

OK, do you really think he is a legitimate scoring threat?? He only shows flashes of decent abilities in that regard. I was all about him for awhile but he doesnt seem to be getting better. IMO. His defense is struggling too
- GOA88

Couturier starts 34.7% of his shifts in the offensive zone, faces the 4th highest quality of competition only behind AMac, Raffl and Read respectively, averages 2:25 of ice time per game on the PK, the most of any forward and 8 points in 17 games (1 on the powerplay, 7 at ES).

To put that in perspective, Lecavalier starts 61.4% of his shifts in the offensive zone, faces the 2nd weakest QoC of any player (behind only Akeson) and averages 2:80 of PP time per game (Couturier averages 1:89). VLC has 5 points in 10 games, 3 of which have come on the PP.

Brayden Schenn starts 61.2% of his shifts in the o-zone, faces the 5th easiest QoC of forwards (behind Akeson, VLC, Rinaldo & PEB), averages 2:84 on the PP and has 13 points in 17 games, 3 of which have come on the PP).

So at ES, Schenn has 10 points, Couturier 7 and Lecavalier 2. If Couturier could get more offensive zone starts against lesser competition, he'd put up more points.

Couturier starts 34.7% of his shifts in the offensive zone, faces the 4th highest quality of competition only behind AMac, Raffl and Read respectively, averages 2:25 of ice time per game on the PK, the most of any forward and 8 points in 17 games (1 on the powerplay, 7 at ES).

To put that in perspective, Lecavalier starts 61.4% of his shifts in the offensive zone, faces the 2nd weakest QoC of any player (behind only Akeson) and averages 2:80 of PP time per game (Couturier averages 1:89). VLC has 5 points in 10 games, 3 of which have come on the PP.

Brayden Schenn starts 61.2% of his shifts in the o-zone, faces the 5th easiest QoC of forwards (behind Akeson, VLC, Rinaldo & PEB), averages 2:84 on the PP and has 13 points in 17 games, 3 of which have come on the PP).

So at ES, Schenn has 10 points, Couturier 7 and Lecavalier 2. If Couturier could get more offensive zone starts against lesser competition, he'd put up more points.
- NickTheKid87

I'm tired of the excuses for this kid. If he was so good he could drive the play up the ice and create offense. Even starting in the d-zone. Its not unheard of. What has he done with PP time?? Nothing.

Lecavalier 2
- NickTheKid87

Actually only 1. The other was w/ the goalie pulled, which they still tabulate as ES, for some reason.

In the past maybe it would. But now, he needs to back it up with action. You don't play hard, you get your ice time cut. Words mean something. I don't think anyone in here would have a problem with him doing what you say they would have a problem with. If the ice time for PEB/Rinaldo and VLC/Umberger were reversed last night, everyone in here would understand the reason and praise Berube for it because at least he is backing up his words.

BUT

Berube keeps harping on working and skating hard, but he does nothing about it. Reward the players working hard regardless of their roles. That is the way it has to be. Otherwise he is tuned out. I think he already has been frankly.
- MBFlyerfan

The problem is that it is team wide. Singling out one or two players, isn't a solution in my opinion. It's more likely to make things worse.
And I can't agree with you that nobody would have a problem with it, had he done that. Berube has been criticized for pretty much every move he has made. Why would doing that be any different? The coach is playing the hand he was dealt. This is on the players as a whole. They're better then this. And they should be better. There was zero fight in this team last night. Like a passive dog cowering in the corner, afraid and beaten down. It was a pathetic effort. That's why the GM went into the locker room to chew out the players.

The timing yes. All the alumni and his ex teammates will be in town. It plays a part in it.
- Just5

That's absurd in my opinion. I guarantee that it had zero to do with it.

Something i was thinking about is so many people made fun of the Flames for signing some of the guys they did. But one thing is they play hard and have an identity. Right now they sit 3rd in a tough division

The problem is that it is team wide. Singling out one or two players, isn't a solution in my opinion. It's more likely to make things worse.
And I can't agree with you that nobody would have a problem with it, had he done that. Berube has been criticized for pretty much every move he has made. Why would doing that be any different? The coach is playing the hand he was dealt. This is on the players as a whole. They're better then this. And they should be better. There was zero fight in this team last night. Like a passive dog cowering in the corner, afraid and beaten down. It was a pathetic effort. That's why the GM went into the locker room to chew out the players.
- MJL

There is absolutely no cohesion with this team. I think thats mostly the problem. These are all NHL quality players in their own right. They just dont support each other. Even Voracek has been running around the ice like a mad man trying to create on his own cause he has to.

I'm tired of the excuses for this kid. If he was so good he could drive the play up the ice and create offense. Even starting in the d-zone. Its not unheard of. What has he done with PP time?? Nothing.
- GOA88

So i guess he can win the faceoff, breakout the pass off the boards to himself, gain the zone himself, drop to the point where he shoots a one timer he can tip in.


He doesn't need wingers or help in anyway.

Something i was thinking about is so many people made fun of the Flames for signing some of the guys they did. But one thing is they play hard and have an identity. Right now they sit 3rd in a tough division
- J35Bacher

I thought their signings of Raymond and Hiller were very good.

That is almost a quarter of a season and the results are meh. I haven't seen anything from him that made me say wow. I am not writing him off completely yet, but so far I am underwhelmed.
- funmaster18

It's almost a quarter of the season, but it's actually less then 1/5th of the season. Berube turned the team around last year, and led them to a strong record over the period of the season when he took over. He deserves some more time to try and get it turned around in my opinion.

Something i was thinking about is so many people made fun of the Flames for signing some of the guys they did. But one thing is they play hard and have an identity. Right now they sit 3rd in a tough division
- J35Bacher

That's more to do with their top 4 D all being solid enough to play 22+ minutes a night. It's not because of Engoonlland.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/pl...IPerGame&viewName=summary

But he had enough ice time for you to even form that thought/opinion? LOL
- Just5

Yes, you can form an opinion on how a player looked in a specific game, regardless of how much icetime he had. That's not the same as permanantly labeling a player.

More realistic version would be:

"NO ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE TEAM."
"Unless your name is Vincent Lecavalier."
"And if your name is Erik Gustafsson or Jason Akeson, just forget about it."
"WE KIND OF TOTALLY CARE WHO YOU ARE"
- Tomahawk

"WE ALSO STRONGLY CONSIDER WHO YOU WERE, DROP RESUMES OFF AT COACHES OFFICE"

I have to wonder if they are missing Timonen and Hartnell more than we thought they would.

His on ice play aside, Timonen's workmanlike approach to the game, his toughness and heart and his no BS classy leadership are sorely missing IMO. Also Hartnell might not of been the fittest player, but he was well liked and he knew how to keep the room loose.

I'm tired of the excuses for this kid. If he was so good he could drive the play up the ice and create offense. Even starting in the d-zone. Its not unheard of. What has he done with PP time?? Nothing.
- GOA88

But he does drive the play up ice. He starts in the OZ 34.7% of the time (lowest on the team) and finishes in the OZ 47.4% of the time (15th on the team).

http://www.behindthenet.c...+58+59+60+61+62+64+65+66#

I agree he's been disappointing on the 2nd PP unit, but so has everyone on that unit. And his lack of success on the 2nd PP unit has nothing to do with speed.

That's more to do with their top 4 D all being solid enough to play 22+ minutes a night. It's not because of Engoonlland.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/pl...IPerGame&viewName=summary
- Feanor

The corpse of Dennis Wideman... reanimated!

(there is still hope for you, Umberger)

More realistic version would be:

"NO ONE IS BIGGER THAN THE TEAM."
"Unless your name is Vincent Lecavalier."
"And if your name is Erik Gustafsson or Jason Akeson, just forget about it."
"WE KIND OF TOTALLY CARE WHO YOU ARE"
- Tomahawk

Are you talking about the Vinny Lecavalier that was demoted to the 4th line last year?

That's more to do with their top 4 D all being solid enough to play 22+ minutes a night. It's not because of Engoonlland.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/pl...IPerGame&viewName=summary
- Feanor

I wasn't meaning just Engylland. The guys they have all play hard and compete without having true superstars. Yes the d is solid but they come to be a team that works hard every game. an identity.

I'm tired of the excuses for this kid. If he was so good he could drive the play up the ice and create offense. Even starting in the d-zone. Its not unheard of.
- GOA88

It's not an excuse, it's a reason. The top offensive players face easier QoC and start more shifts (at least half) in the o-zone.

Here's some shutdown centers in comparasion:

Sean Couturier
17 GP
OZ Starts: 34.7%
CorsiRelQoC: 1.801
ES pts: 7
PP pts: 1

Patrice Bergeron
20 GP
OZ starts: 43.2%
CorsiRelQoC: 1.957
ES pts: 11
PP pts: 4

Anze Kopitar
16 GP
OZ starts: 49.6%
CorsiRelQoC: 0.832
ES pts: 7
PP pts: 3

David Backes
17 GP
OZ starts: 34.3%
CorsiRelQoC: 0.413
ES pts: 4
PP pts: 5


This is just three because I didn't have time for more but we know these three are better than Couturier but they aren't producing all that much either and they are in very similar situations. So let's give Couts some more favorable match-ups before we write him off offensively.

I thought their signings of Raymond and Hiller were very good.
- Streit2ThePoint

I wanted raymond. I thought he would look nice with Couturier

It's almost a quarter of the season, but it's actually less then 1/5th of the season. Berube turned the team around last year, and led them to a strong record over the period of the season when he took over. He deserves some more time to try and get it turned around in my opinion.
- MJL

Yes he does.

So i guess he can win the faceoff, breakout the pass off the boards to himself, gain the zone himself, drop to the point where he shoots a one timer he can tip in.


He doesn't need wingers or help in anyway.


- J35Bacher

He does have wingers. They have tried numerous options with him. Even Voracek a couple years ago. It doesnt work. Not good enough for 2nd line scoring center anyways. He is a 3rd line center in my book.

It's not an excuse, it's a reason. The top offensive players face easier QoC and start more shifts (at least half) in the o-zone.

Here's some shutdown centers in comparasion:

Sean Couturier
17 GP
OZ Starts: 34.7%
CorsiRelQoC: 1.801
ES pts: 7
PP pts: 1

Patrice Bergeron
20 GP
OZ starts: 43.2%
CorsiRelQoC: 1.957
ES pts: 11
PP pts: 4

Anze Kopitar
16 GP
OZ starts: 49.6%
CorsiRelQoC: 0.832
ES pts: 7
PP pts: 3

David Backes
17 GP
OZ starts: 34.3%
CorsiRelQoC: 0.413
ES pts: 4
PP pts: 5


This is just three because I didn't have time for more but we know these three are better than Couturier but they aren't producing all that much either and they are in very similar situations. So let's give Couts some more favorable match-ups before we write him off offensively.
- NickTheKid87

Also lets look at what wingers they play with compared to what Couturier is playing with. That will also help numbers.