Couldn't have said it any better...

Puck support and going to the net. That IS playoff hockey. Stretch passes into a trap....not so much.

I haven't been this encouraged about the Pens in several years. I'm no longer worried about the coach. Still, they need to add a 2nd line wing IMO.
- madmike71

I find no flaws in your logic and agree completely.

There is nothing that says that you need to get something in return for free agents leaving. I don't understand that hangup with some fans.

Paul Martin was signed for 5 years... I'd much rather have him play five full seasons and playoffs, than 4 1/2 seasons and then get some return of future players/picks (or another UFA).
- rival22

Its more a matter of circumstance for me. When we have a farm system lacking in top talent, a need for a top 6 winger, and lack of depth balance between forward and defense....I think you need to manage your assets based on that circumstance.

Will I be pissed if we hang onto Martin and Ehrhoff and let them both walk? No. Will I be pissed if we let them both walk AND don't address our forward needs? Yes.

A legit top 6 threat is needed to maximize our greatest asset being 2 generational centers. It is irresponcible for JR to not be aggressively persuing a scoring threat to play with Malkin.
- stackthepads

I'd say Crosby and Malkin are doing just fine with what they have.

And the biggest point of all is that Martin isn't going to bring a return that is significantly better than what the Penguins have in-house, because teams don't give up talented top 6 forwards (especially young guys with term) for 33 (soon to be 34) year old rentals.

I mean, if you told me that St. Louis was offering Tarasenko for Martin straight up, then I'd ride GMJR to the league offices in a rickshaw to make the deal. But that's just not happening.

Will I be pissed if we hang onto Martin and Ehrhoff and let them both walk? No. Will I be pissed if we let them both walk AND don't address our forward needs? Yes.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

If they both walk, that's $9 mil in cap room to address any perceived (nonexistent, IMO) top 6 need next summer.

I'm confused with all this weird logic in favour of keeping Martin over trading him for a top 6.

What if one of our d get injured? Well that happened already, last year. They ALL got injured and the dmen coming up all played well enough to keep us chugging along.

We have a stupid amount of defensive depth, we can afford several injuries to our defense (knock on wood). What we cant afford is an injury to our top 6. If Kunitz, Horny, Malkin or Crosby go down we have no second line.

A legit top 6 threat is needed to maximize our greatest asset being 2 generational centers. It is irresponcible for JR to not be aggressively persuing a scoring threat to play with Malkin.
- stackthepads

Thats the crucial piece of all this. Maybe some of you think we can win a cup with Comeau on the second line...that's fine, but we can not survive one top 6 injury and be seriously considered as a contender.

There wouldn't be a steep dropoff in defensive play if we traded Martin. At least not nearly the kind of dropoff we saw last year with Gibbons in a top 6 role...or hypothetically this year ending up with a 2nd line of -- Spaling or Downie - Malkin - Comeau. Not to mention the bottom 6 getting that much worse.

I'd say Crosby and Malkin are doing just fine with what they have.

And the biggest point of all is that Martin isn't going to bring a return that is significantly better than what the Penguins have in-house, because teams don't give up talented top 6 forwards (especially young guys with term) for 33 (soon to be 34) year old rentals.

I mean, if you told me that St. Louis was offering Tarasenko for Martin straight up, then I'd ride GMJR to the league offices in a rickshaw to make the deal. But that's just not happening.
- hardnosed

Malkin has 0 even strength goals so far this year. I'm not going to put a ton of stock into the short sample size but it's fair to be a little concerned.

To your second point, what if we traded Martin for a 1st and then traded that 1st and Pouliot for Evegeny Kuznetsov. Don't get caught up in the specifics but the point is Martin may not get us the young top 6 guy we want but he can definitely give us the assets to make that kind of deal.

If they both walk, that's $9 mil in cap room to address any perceived (nonexistent, IMO) top 6 need next summer.
- hardnosed

And get what free agent? There's literally no one worth pursuing, aka overpaying for, who will be a free agent.

If they both walk, that's $9 mil in cap room to address any perceived (nonexistent, IMO) top 6 need next summer.
- hardnosed

Not really, have you seen the list of UFA F's? Slim pickins.

I would like to see a deal during the season to get Perron or Nino, both have at least a yr left.

There wouldn't be a steep dropoff in defensive play if we traded Martin.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Totally disagree.

And the point remains, Martin isn't going to bring back anything much better than Comeau, who I actually think is a really good fit with Malkin for a variety of reasons.

Malkin doesn't need star players to play with, he needs guys who do certain things. Comeau's got a very underrated shot, he hits people, he's defensively responsible and he's got a better hockey IQ than I thought he did. He could easily score 25 this year if he's left with Malkin.

And Dupes is, as always, busy being Dupes.

Totally disagree.

And the point remains, Martin isn't going to bring back anything much better than Comeau, who I actually think is a really good fit with Malkin for a variety of reasons.

Malkin doesn't need star players to play with, he needs guys who do certain things. Comeau's got a very underrated shot, he hits people, he's defensively responsible and he's got a better hockey IQ than I thought he did. He could easily score 25 this year if he's left with Malkin.

And Dupes is, as always, busy being Dupes.
- hardnosed

Don't understand how you think Martin is so valuable to us but wont return us anything valuable.

Not really, have you seen the list of UFA F's? Slim pickins.

I would like to see a deal during the season to get Perron or Nino, both have at least a yr left.
- sammy87

And get what free agent? There's literally no one worth pursuing, aka overpaying for, who will be a free agent.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

And those two statements perfectly describe this year's trade market, especially with Martin as the bait.

I'm not advocating them seeking a UFA next summer because I don't see the need.

Kunitz/Dupuis/Hornqvist/Kapanen/Bennett. They're set for next year. And I think they'll re-sign Comeau which would give them 6 bodies for 4 spots if Kap isn't ready, or they want to keep Bennett with Sutter.

I still think they'll need a top 6 wing before the playoffs. While Comeau has been decent enough playing on the 2nd line he's not going to get it done in the long run. Who knows what we can expect from BB. I think he should get that 2nd line RW spot as soon as he gets back, but I have no expectation he'll be playing 6 games from now let alone 6 months from now. Just can't count on him.

Two things happen every spring.... Less PP time and stingier defenses. They will need to make a trade. Who's involved is anybody's guess.
- madmike71

Their PP has been atrocious all year until Dallas came to town, but there is too much talent on this roster for it to continue to suck. Martin is not needed in Minny...plus we couldn't afford him unless Koivu is moved.

I'd say Crosby and Malkin are doing just fine with what they have.

And the biggest point of all is that Martin isn't going to bring a return that is significantly better than what the Penguins have in-house, because teams don't give up talented top 6 forwards (especially young guys with term) for 33 (soon to be 34) year old rentals.

I mean, if you told me that St. Louis was offering Tarasenko for Martin straight up, then I'd ride GMJR to the league offices in a rickshaw to make the deal. But that's just not happening.
- hardnosed

Crosby is doing fine, Malkin has like 5 points at even strength, thats not fine for a player of his talent level.

I agree with you that Martin doesnt hold the value that most people think he does. But Martins value is in cap space that we will need to fill the top 6 spot.

YoumeandDupuis mentioned not to long ago that Martin could be traded for picks/prospects that could then be flipped with some of our picks/prospects for a top 6.

There are teams that could value a player like Martin enough if they think they are a cup contender. Dallas for instance are close but need defensive help, even a rental. Seguin/Ben are untouchable, Spezza/Hemsky I wouldn't want...Nichuchkin (sp) however could possibly be had.
Martin + pouliot
Martin + Dumoulin + 1st
Either of these trades would help Dallas in this years playoffs and give them a possible fanchise dman or a servicable dman and a 1st to ease the loss of Nich.

I know people are big on keeping the 1st pick but doesn anyone on here honestly think we will be able to draft anyone close to Nichukins talent with where we are picking?

Thats just an example, there are trades to be made out there and we have a glut of dmen prospects.

And those two statements perfectly describe this year's trade market, especially with Martin as the bait.

I'm not advocating them seeking a UFA next summer because I don't see the need.

Kunitz/Dupuis/Hornqvist/Kapanen/Bennett. They're set for next year. And I think they'll re-sign Comeau which would give them 6 bodies for 4 spots if Kap isn't ready, or they want to keep Bennett with Sutter.
- hardnosed

While Dupes and Kunitz are playing well right now, it's still the 1st week into the season, 10 games? Lets see how they are in February and March to see if they can hack it next year at 36.

And those two statements perfectly describe this year's trade market, especially with Martin as the bait.

I'm not advocating them seeking a UFA next summer because I don't see the need.

Kunitz/Dupuis/Hornqvist/Kapanen/Bennett. They're set for next year. And I think they'll re-sign Comeau which would give them 6 bodies for 4 spots if Kap isn't ready, or they want to keep Bennett with Sutter.
- hardnosed

While Dupes and Kunitz are playing well right now, it's still the 1st week into the Nov, 10 games? Lets see how they are in February and March to see if they can hack it next year at 36.

And those two statements perfectly describe this year's trade market, especially with Martin as the bait.

I'm not advocating them seeking a UFA next summer because I don't see the need.

Kunitz/Dupuis/Hornqvist/Kapanen/Bennett. They're set for next year. And I think they'll re-sign Comeau which would give them 6 bodies for 4 spots if Kap isn't ready, or they want to keep Bennett with Sutter.
- hardnosed

While Dupes and Kunitz are playing well right now, it's still the 1st week into the season, 10 games? Lets see how they are in February and March to see if they can hack it next year at 36.

Don't understand how you think Martin is so valuable to us but wont return us anything valuable.
- YouMeAndDupuis9

Well, of course the reverse would be that you think Martin is expendable but valuable, so there's that.

But to answer the question, contenders don't trade NHL-proven top 6 wingers for rentals. They just don't. Could Paul Martin bring in a nice package of prospects and picks at the deadline? Sure. But that won't help the Penguins bring the Cup back to the 'Burgh this year.

For all the "We need Martin for the playoffs" people, he's been here for 4 playoffs, and the Penguins have won 3 series in that time.

Is it Martin's fault?? No, but it shows that he is not the catalyst to the Pens magically ending their playoff woes.

Well, of course the reverse would be that you think Martin is expendable but valuable, so there's that.

But to answer the question, contenders don't trade NHL-proven top 6 wingers for rentals. They just don't. Could Paul Martin bring in a nice package of prospects and picks at the deadline? Sure. But that won't help the Penguins bring the Cup back to the 'Burgh this year.
- hardnosed

Martin is expendale on our team. Thats the point he's trying to make, we have the depth at Martins position, we have enough veteran presence in Letang, Ehrhoff and Scuds to help out the youngsters. Losing Martin will not hurt us as much as getting a top 6 will help us.

Well, of course the reverse would be that you think Martin is expendable but valuable, so there's that.

But to answer the question, contenders don't trade NHL-proven top 6 wingers for rentals. They just don't. Could Paul Martin bring in a nice package of prospects and picks at the deadline? Sure. But that won't help the Penguins bring the Cup back to the 'Burgh this year.
- hardnosed

No, but the picks and prospects could be flipped for a top 6.

For all the "We need Martin for the playoffs" people, he's been here for 4 playoffs, and the Penguins have won 3 series in that time.

Is it Martin's fault?? No, but it shows that he is not the catalyst to the Pens magically ending their playoff woes.
- cap1681

Yeah I keep saying that about a certain top 6 grouping that has done little in the playoffs as well.

Martin wont be missed much, he is a luxury on this team and it's time to move on.

I know people are big on keeping the 1st pick but doesn anyone on here honestly think we will be able to draft anyone close to Nichukins talent with where we are picking?

Thats just an example, there are trades to be made out there and we have a glut of dmen prospects.
- stackthepads

Well, because trading away 1st and 2nd round picks is what has the Penguins in this mess in the first place.

I wouldn't trade Pouliot for anything unless it was the sweetest package imaginable. His value is only going to go up as he plays more. Martin, Dumo and one of the later picks in the draft isn't going to bring back a 19 year old, former #10 pick that Dallas has no reason to rid themselves of.

While Dupes and Kunitz are playing well right now, it's still the 1st week into the Nov, 10 games? Lets see how they are in February and March to see if they can hack it next year at 36.
- sammy87

Not sure why folks continue to doubt those two.

Wasn't Dupuis supposed to be late to return from surgery this year because he was so old? Or maybe it was that his speed was going to be gone? Can't remember which.

Well, because trading away 1st and 2nd round picks is what has the Penguins in this mess in the first place.

I wouldn't trade Pouliot for anything unless it was the sweetest package imaginable. His value is only going to go up as he plays more. Martin, Dumo and one of the later picks in the draft isn't going to bring back a 19 year old, former #10 pick that Dallas has no reason to rid themselves of.
- hardnosed

The reason would be to get a top end talent like Martin for their playoff run. But Im not standing on this hill, I wouldnt trade Nich if I were Dallas.
It was just an example of a team that would value Martin, and an example trade to get a young top 6.

And Pouliot may be at his all time high. He has played zero games at the NHL level. I would gamble swapping him for a player of Nichuchkins calibre.

Not sure why folks continue to doubt those two.

Wasn't Dupuis supposed to be late to return from surgery this year because he was so old? Or maybe it was that his speed was going to be gone? Can't remember which.
- hardnosed

Not doubting, but there needs to be an exit strategy to move on from them in the very near future. Right now the top 6 replacements are BB and Kap? Just look at Iginla, Guerin, players in their mid 30's in this league drop fast.