Trying to watch the body language of a professional athlete during a very small snapshot of time to determine their mindset is an exercise of projection.

Truth is, that body language and laughing stuff can mean anything you think it means. When people do this, they are likely just projecting their own hang ups on the athlete's actions because no one has really any idea what's going on in their heads.
- johndewar

Players prepare for games differently than others. Some enjoy joking around before a game in order to stay loose. Others don't want to talk to anyone because they want to be in the zone. Some like listening to music.

Perhaps, the Flyers are too pumped up and lose gap control or go out of position.

I don't believe the team is lacking effort to start games. They just aren't that good.

Trying to watch the body language of a professional athlete during a very small snapshot of time to determine their mindset is an exercise of projection.

Truth is, that body language and laughing stuff can mean anything you think it means. When people do this, they are likely just projecting their own hang ups on the athlete's actions because no one has really any idea what's going on in their heads.
- johndewar

they stink in Florida so something is going on

Chris Pronger would never knowingly injure Chris Pronger for fear of retaliation from Chris Pronger.
- jmatchett383

I don't believe the team is lacking effort to start games. They just aren't that good.
- PhillySportsGuy

Yes.

Chris Pronger would never knowingly injure Chris Pronger for fear of retaliation from Chris Pronger.
- jmatchett383

That's true.

Chris Pronger would never want to knowingly piss off Chris Pronger.

Yes.
- Tomahawk

No

Chris Pronger would never knowingly injure Chris Pronger for fear of retaliation from Chris Pronger.
- jmatchett383

Chris Pronger fears no man. Even Chris Pronger.

No
- MBFlyerfan

Maybe

Players prepare for games differently than others. Some enjoy joking around before a game in order to stay loose. Others don't want to talk to anyone because they want to be in the zone. Some like listening to music.

Perhaps, the Flyers are too pumped up and lose gap control or go out of position.

I don't believe the team is lacking effort to start games. They just aren't that good.
- PhillySportsGuy

That's a Bingo!

What I mean by fluctuations is that sometimes they'll beat good teams and lose to bad ones but at the end of the day, they will be around .500.

The point I'm arguing is that leadership is too abstract of a concept to lay blame on, especially when the Flyers have tangible problems that could much more reasonably be the reason for their struggles. Leadership may play some role but it's marginal in the grand scheme of things, IMO.
- NickTheKid87

I wouldn't say it's marginal. I think a lot of people got caught up in the "lol Dave Bolland" circus, and now consider leadership just an excuse to sign lesser players to bad contracts. I'm not saying there's some magic bullet leader that'll fix everything. I do think a leader (whose play on the ice backs it up) can help keep his teammates more responsible.

That's not to say the Flyers don't have the roster issues they obviously have, or that leadership is the singular reason they're a mediocre team.

/thread

I wouldn't say it's marginal. I think a lot of people got caught up in the "lol Dave Bolland" circus, and now consider leadership just an excuse to sign lesser players to bad contracts. I'm not saying there's some magic bullet leader that'll fix everything. I do think a leader (whose play on the ice backs it up) can help keep his teammates more responsible.

That's not to say the Flyers don't have the roster issues they obviously have, or that leadership is the singular reason they're a mediocre team.
- BulliesPhan87

Bolland is the solution to our problems

I wouldn't say it's marginal. I think a lot of people got caught up in the "lol Dave Bolland" circus, and now consider leadership just an excuse to sign lesser players to bad contracts. I'm not saying there's some magic bullet leader that'll fix everything. I do think a leader (whose play on the ice backs it up) can help keep his teammates more responsible.

That's not to say the Flyers don't have the roster issues they obviously have, or that leadership is the singular reason they're a mediocre team.
- BulliesPhan87

It depends if you believe that the vast majority of NHL players are self-motivated and completely committed, or not.

At lower levels, maybe having a respected peer to push and nanny the players around them creates a significant marginal advantage... but for the most part, it appears like guys like DB, Bergie and Tazer are mostly pretty unassuming lead-by-example types.

Chris Prongers are pretty rare (and not entirely necessary).

I wouldn't say it's marginal. I think a lot of people got caught up in the "lol Dave Bolland" circus, and now consider leadership just an excuse to sign lesser players to bad contracts. I'm not saying there's some magic bullet leader that'll fix everything. I do think a leader (whose play on the ice backs it up) can help keep his teammates more responsible.

That's not to say the Flyers don't have the roster issues they obviously have, or that leadership is the singular reason they're a mediocre team.
- BulliesPhan87

I can agree with that. But I mean, Giroux was selected captain for a reason (Gagne was never captain, nor Pavel Datsyuk in DET, it took Ovechkin awhile in WSH, etc.), Streit captained the Islanders, Lecavalier the Lightning, AMac wore an A in Long Island, Umberger wore one in Columbus, Couturier wore an A for Drummondville and was actually the captain for Team Cherry, Brayden Schenn was captain of the Wheat Kings, and even PEB wore an A for Team France. If that is a metric we can use, then the Flyers really don't lack leadership, which is why it would be marginal, to me at least. It's not like a team full of Zherdevs.

It depends if you believe that the vast majority of NHL players are self-motivated and completely committed, or not.

At lower levels, maybe having a respected peer to push and nanny the players around them creates a significant marginal advantage... but for the most part, it appears like guys like DB, Bergie and Tazer are mostly pretty unassuming lead-by-example types.

Chris Prongers are pretty rare.
- Tomahawk

tbh DB, Bergie, and Tazer sounds like the cast of a retro style buddy cop TV show.

No chance of Del Zotto sitting. I'd personally go with Schenn, when everyone is back.
- MJL

I hope Del Zotto does not sit. I think the defense ranks this way with everyone back:

Coburn
Streit
MacDonald
Grossman
Del Zotto
Schultz

tbh DB, Bergie, and Tazer sounds like the cast of a retro style buddy cop TV show.
- BulliesPhan87

Maybe they're restarting the original ECW with those guys.

Also, I'm assuming DB is Dustin Brown and Bergie is Patrice Bergeron, but who the hell is "Tazer?"

Its good to know that their habit of not being ready to play in the start of games for the last four seasons has to do with talent and not lack of effort.

This teams amazing ability to come back from deficits late in games speaks to their talent in the latter half of games. Talent that does not exist at the beginning of games.

So its a lack of talent. But only a lack of "beginning of game" talent.

I'm glad that has been cleared up.

tbh DB, Bergie, and Tazer sounds like the cast of a retro style buddy cop TV show.
- BulliesPhan87

AND AT 9 OCLOCK AFTER "BJ AND THE BEAR"....

DB, BERGIE, AND TAZAR PATROL THE STREETS OF CHICAGO WITH THEIR OWN SPECIAL BRAND OF BUDDY COP JUSTICE!

Maybe they're restarting the original ECW with those guys.

Also, I'm assuming DB is Dustin Brown and Bergie is Patrice Bergeron, but who the hell is "Tazer?"
- jmatchett383

Its a nickname for Toews

Maybe they're restarting the original ECW with those guys.

Also, I'm assuming DB is Dustin Brown and Bergie is Patrice Bergeron, but who the hell is "Tazer?"
- jmatchett383

Jonathan Toews

Its good to know that their habit of not being ready to play in the start of games for the last four seasons has to do with talent and not lack of effort.

This teams amazing ability to come back from deficits late in games speaks to their talent in the latter half of games. Talent that does not exist at the beginning of games.

So its a lack of talent. But only a lack of "beginning of game" talent.

I'm glad that has been cleared up.

- MBFlyerfan

Also beginning of game goaltending and the ability to leap tall buildings in 3-4 bounds. If they can leap higher in 1-2 bounds, they'd be much better.

It's not an issue for them because they execute well due to their roster and such. This issue of "not showing up" has been going on for 3 years now on teams with different coaches. The "leadership group" is the same but it was also the same group in 2011-12. The one thing that has changed is the talent of the roster. You often cite last year's turn around as a plus for Berube. That was the same leadership core except Hartnell, who may have been considered a problem by the head coach.

Now they are missing their 3 top defensemen from last year as well as their first line winger and we're going to blame leadership? There's a much better, simpler explanation for their problems so I shall call forth Occam's razor.
- NickTheKid87

It's not an issue for them because they come to play on the opening puck drop for the overwhelming majority of games. The fluctuations that are present that you are confusing with the Flyers situation, is situations such as 3 game in 4 nights, or back to back games where a team just doesn't have it's legs. That happens with every team. That is not the case with this Flyere team and the issues they are having, especially at the start of games.
There is no doubt that the Flyers have some roster issues, and some execution issues that have effected them this season. But by far the most alarming issue in my opinion, is the lack of intensity, and urgency in the team for games and periods of games.

Jonathan Toews
- johndewar

Is it really? Never heard it before.

tbh DB, Bergie, and Tazer sounds like the cast of a retro style buddy cop TV show.
- BulliesPhan87

no idea who any of them are