A lot of credit is due to Coach mac - he's had a lot of people slamming him but he knew last season was a write off so he used his young players (Turris, Smith, Karlsson, Cowen, Greening, Ceci) an big minute rolls and played them more then they probably deserved - their development last year playing so many minutes and so many high end and tough minutes will really benefit Ottawa this year when they play more in their slots - Smith will be a 13-14 minute player and not a 17 minute player - karlsson will be able to handle the big minutes better because he's been through it once now, Greening will be better at 12-13 minutes then the 15 he was averaging last year, same with Cowen.

I know the coach was almost run out of town but I;m behind him 100% - if there is a reason to believe Ottawa can make the playoffs it is because our young guns played so many big and important minutes last year and we will see that pay off this year.
- tuna99

I agree with most of what you said. But more than anything else Ottawa needs strong play from Zibanejad, Legwand and Smith.

Zibanejad is a tenacious 200' player. He has a higher offensive ceiling than Turris. He scored some nice goals and on lots of nights he was the guy who was driving possession among the Ottawa forwards. I think he will get to 25 goals but not sure he can do it this year.

no doubt, i'm not disputing that, although on the rare occasion that he was given actual top six time, he played well.

i'm just pointing it out because you mentioned that stepan was 15pts per year ahead on average, which is deceiving because of turris' time in pxh. if you take that average since turris arrived in ottawa, it's significantly closer.

since turris arrived in ottawa:

50 goals, 116 pts, in 179 games, +40

in that same time, stepan:

45 goals, 131pts, in 179 games, +51

it's pretty damn close.....and stepan has put up his numbers playing on a much better team (over that time period)
- sensarmy_11

That's a fair point.

listen, i love turris, i think he's a great player, but to mention him in the same breath as toews or bergeron is ridiculous.

he plays the same kind of complete game that those guys do, but no where near as well. those guys are elite, turris is just really good.

right now he belongs in the conversation with guys like stepan, couture, etc....not saying he's better than those guys, but they're all guys who are very good, but not elite yet. they're a level or two below guys like toews, bergeron, crosby, getzlaf, giroux, etc

turris has potential, a great 200 foot game, he could conceivably put up 30 goals and 70pts with a healthy ryan on his wing......and if he does that on a regular basis, then maybe you can start putting him in the same sentence as bergeron or krejci......IMO (which i feel most people will share) he'll never be in the same class as guys like giroux, toews, etc
- sensarmy_11

Why do I think that when he gets there that you will be the first to say I knew it all the time that he was that good. Turris gets there if or when Ottawa makes a deep run in the playoffs. For great 200' players, team success always predicates individual success.

But, also need to say there are elite players beyond our discussion here. I think, for example that Sidney Crosby is the best defensive player in the league. We often lose sight of the intensity of his defensive game. Because he is so good offensively we forget that he plays the ultimate 200' game.

Why do I think that when he gets there that you will be the first to say I knew it all the time that he was that good. Turris gets there if or when Ottawa makes a deep run in the playoffs. For great 200' players, team success always predicates individual success.

But, also need to say there are elite players beyond our discussion here. I think, for example that Sidney Crosby is the best defensive player in the league. We often lose sight of the intensity of his defensive game. Because he is so good offensively we forget that he plays the ultimate 200' game.
- spatso

gets where? to a toews level of game......where he's a point per game player, captains a stanley cup winner (twice), and is widely viewed as the best overall player in the game?

or are you talking about a bergeron level, where he's like a 60 pt player, but with elite level 2 way play? (bergeron is also maybe the best FO guy in teh league, turris has a lot of work to do there).

i think it's possible he gets to bergeron levels, MAYBE (he'll never be as good in the dot), and if he does then i'll be happy. i'll never say "i knew it all along".

he'll NEVER get to toews level....EVER

People want Turris to improve on last year's number. I hope he just duplicates last year (+22). If the other guys pick up the slack the Sens will contend. Remember the Senators goal is not score more goals. It is to reduce GA by 50.
- spatso

Well... the goal is to reduce GA buy 50, without losing significant ground in terms of GF. If Turris can start to consistently put up 50/60pts seasons while taking regular shifts against the same players that made Spezza a -26 player last year, then some of the loftier player comparisons might start holding more water. Of course, this still wouldn't account for the loss of Spezza's offensive contribution... which means several other players will have to be better offensively this year as well.

gets where? to a toews level of game......where he's a point per game player, captains a stanley cup winner (twice), and is widely viewed as the best overall player in the game?

or are you talking about a bergeron level, where he's like a 60 pt player, but with elite level 2 way play? (bergeron is also maybe the best FO guy in teh league, turris has a lot of work to do there).

i think it's possible he gets to bergeron levels, MAYBE (he'll never be as good in the dot), and if he does then i'll be happy. i'll never say "i knew it all along".

he'll NEVER get to toews level....EVER
- sensarmy_11

I think Toews has had one season as a point a game player.

But, yes, the bench mark for Turris is Begeron and Toews. And, I will say again Turris will not get individual recognition of that level unless the Senators achieve team success.

I think Toews has had one season as a point a game player.

But, yes, the bench mark for Turris is Begeron and Toews. And, I will say again Turris will not get individual recognition of that level unless the Senators achieve team success.
- spatso

toews has 440pts in 484games, and has been at or DAMN close to a ppg for the last 5 or so years.

the bench mark for turris is not toews.....i also don't think that bergeron is in the same class as toews.

toews is almost unanimously thought of as a top 3 player in the nhl.......turris will NEVER come close to that.

toews has 440pts in 484games, and has been at or DAMN close to a ppg for the last 5 or so years.

the bench mark for turris is not toews.....i also don't think that bergeron is in the same class as toews.

toews is almost unanimously thought of as a top 3 player in the nhl.......turris will NEVER come close to that.
- sensarmy_11

We will see, soon enough!

no doubt, i'm not disputing that, although on the rare occasion that he was given actual top six time, he played well.

i'm just pointing it out because you mentioned that stepan was 15pts per year ahead on average, which is deceiving because of turris' time in pxh. if you take that average since turris arrived in ottawa, it's significantly closer.

since turris arrived in ottawa:

50 goals, 116 pts, in 179 games, +40

in that same time, stepan:

45 goals, 131pts, in 179 games, +51

it's pretty damn close.....and stepan has put up his numbers playing on a much better team (over that time period)
- sensarmy_11

Yea I think stepan is superior defensively and has better playmaking ability but turris is more of a scoring threat, better skater, and has better hands. Stepans hockey iq is what leads to his production but turris is more "dynamic" in the sense that he can create a flashy play in tight spaces by dangling and skating.

toews has 440pts in 484games, and has been at or DAMN close to a ppg for the last 5 or so years.

the bench mark for turris is not toews.....i also don't think that bergeron is in the same class as toews.

toews is almost unanimously thought of as a top 3 player in the nhl.......turris will NEVER come close to that.
- sensarmy_11

Jonathon Toews is only 17 months older than Kyle Turris. I'd say that whatever we see out of Turris over the next 2-4 years will probably be close to as good as he will ever be.

Jonathon Toews is only 17 months older than Kyle Turris. I'd say that whatever we see out of Turris over the next 2-4 years will probably be close to as good as he will ever be.
- BINGO!

I think that is correct.

I think that is correct.
- spatso

i also think it's correct.....and i don't think it will be anywhere near the level that toews performs at.

i'd LOVE it if he played close to that level, but i think the chances of it happening are so miniscule as to not even be worth calculating.

Yea I think stepan is superior defensively and has better playmaking ability but turris is more of a scoring threat, better skater, and has better hands. Stepans hockey iq is what leads to his production but turris is more "dynamic" in the sense that he can create a flashy play in tight spaces by dangling and skating.
- rangerdanger94

that's debatable. if he is, it's by much. turris is an excellent defensive forward.

that's debatable. if he is, it's by much. turris is an excellent defensive forward.
- sensarmy_11

Stepan's GA/60 mins is 1.77.

Turris's GA/60 is 2.23

Not really debatable.

Zibanejad will have a breakout year. I see him putting up 60-70 points with Stone on his wing,

Stepan's GA/60 mins is 1.77.

Turris's GA/60 is 2.23

Not really debatable.
- rangerdanger94

one has the rangers defense and lundqvist on his team......the other plays in ottawa. it's debatable

one has the rangers defense and lundqvist on his team......the other plays in ottawa. it's debatable
- sensarmy_11

Ottawa's SV% when Turris is on the ice is .938.

NYR's SV% when Stepan is on the ice is .943.

.005 isn't that big of a different in goaltending. It's not debatable.

Ottawa's SV% when Turris is on the ice is .938.

NYR's SV% when Stepan is on the ice is .943.

.005 isn't that big of a different in goaltending. It's not debatable.
- rangerdanger94

is that 5v5....or does it include pk. also, when you look at the difference in the amount of shots each team faces, that 0.05 could be significant

is that 5v5....or does it include pk. also, when you look at the difference in the amount of shots each team faces, that 0.05 could be significant
- sensarmy_11

5v5 only stats:

SA/20
Turris: 11.706
Stepan: 10.311

GA/20
Turris: 0.683
Stepan: 0.537

Team SV% when on-ice:
Turris: 94.16%
Stepan: 94.79%

Since you're a big believer in the tangible numbers from our Girardi/Staal debate, it's very clear the Stepan is far superior to Turris defensively.

"virtually every statistic, be it traditional or advance, points to Stepan being better than Turris"

So if you continue to think Turris is better, my response to you is, "so says you.......while every measurable attribute and stat says Stepan is better."

5v5 only stats:

SA/20
Turris: 11.706
Stepan: 10.311

GA/20
Turris: 0.683
Stepan: 0.537

Team SV% when on-ice:
Turris: 94.16%
Stepan: 94.79%

Since you're a big believer in the tangible numbers from our Girardi/Staal debate, it's very clear the Stepan is far superior to Turris defensively.

"virtually every statistic, be it traditional or advance, points to Stepan being better than Turris"

So if you continue to think Turris is better, my response to you is, "so says you.......while every measurable attribute and stat says Stepan is better."
- rangerdanger94

to be fair, i never said he was better, i said it was debatable. obviously the numbers say stepan is better, and that's fine......but you can't say it isn't debatable. there are factors you can look at here that you can't really look at when comparing guys who play on the same team.

so is stepan better defensively, sure.....but i think turris is close based on the fact that new york probably has the best goalie and D corps in the league....while ottawa has up and down goaltending and arguably one of the worst d corps in the league.

to be fair, i never said he was better, i said it was debatable. obviously the numbers say stepan is better, and that's fine......but you can't say it isn't debatable. there are factors you can look at here that you can't really look at when comparing guys who play on the same team.

so is stepan better defensively, sure.....but i think turris is close based on the fact that new york probably has the best goalie and D corps in the league....while ottawa has up and down goaltending and arguably one of the worst d corps in the league.
- sensarmy_11

The fact that NY is one of the best defensive teams in the league is a credit to Stepan's defensive ability. The fact that Ottawa is one of the worst defensive teams in the league also demonstrates a lack of defensive ability for Turris.

To be clear, the stats basically say: Your goalie faces a lot more shots and goals against when Turris is on the ice compared to our goalie when Stepan is on the ice. The SV% is pretty comparable, although Lundqvist's is slightly better. I attribute that to more of the shots against when Stepan is on the ice are shots that aren't good scoring chances. Not only does Turris have more shots against per 20 mins he's on the ice, but they're also higher quality scoring chances against. Hence, the lower save %.

The fact that NY is one of the best defensive teams in the league is a credit to Stepan's defensive ability. The fact that Ottawa is one of the worst defensive teams in the league also demonstrates a lack of defensive ability for Turris.

To be clear, the stats basically say: Your goalie faces a lot more shots and goals against when Turris is on the ice compared to our goalie when Stepan is on the ice. The SV% is pretty comparable, although Lundqvist's is slightly better. I attribute that to more of the shots against when Stepan is on the ice are shots that aren't good scoring chances. Not only does Turris have more shots against per 20 mins he's on the ice, but they're also higher quality scoring chances against. Hence, the lower save %.
- rangerdanger94

as if the bolded part wasn't enough....

higher quality scoring chances? there is no stat that measures that, which means there is no way you could possibly know that, so now i know that you're just talking out your ass

as if the bolded part wasn't enough....

higher quality scoring chances? there is no stat that measures that, which means there is no way you could possibly know that, so now i know that you're just talking out your ass
- sensarmy_11

There's no stat that measures defensive awareness and defensive IQ but you were very comfortable using advanced stats to "prove" that Girardi is without a reasonable doubt better than Staal?

The fact that NY is one of the best defensive teams in the league is a credit to Stepan's defensive ability. The fact that Ottawa is one of the worst defensive teams in the league also demonstrates a lack of defensive ability for Turris.

To be clear, the stats basically say: Your goalie faces a lot more shots and goals against when Turris is on the ice compared to our goalie when Stepan is on the ice. The SV% is pretty comparable, although Lundqvist's is slightly better. I attribute that to more of the shots against when Stepan is on the ice are shots that aren't good scoring chances. Not only does Turris have more shots against per 20 mins he's on the ice, but they're also higher quality scoring chances against. Hence, the lower save %.
- rangerdanger94

also....according to YOUR WEBSITE that you've been referencing.

turris GA20 - 0.624 = GA60 1.872

stepan GA20 - 0.672 = GA60 2.016

http://stats.hockeyanalys...&sort=OPPF20&sortdir=DESC

so tell me again how there's no debate......maybe you should get your facts straight

There's no stat that measures defensive awareness and defensive IQ but you were very comfortable using advanced stats to "prove" that Girardi is without a reasonable doubt better than Staal?
- rangerdanger94

yes, but look at your website again.......there aren't any stats showing stepan is better, except the ones you made up.

stepan was on the ice for more GA then turris was.....FACT