The problem is that there is a division right now between those of us that understand and use these stats and those that dismiss them as foolish.

And even last night there was a blog on this site that said jagar and Zajac are among elite players in the league. And he based it on there possession stats.

His argument was silly and foolish as he picked and chose the duos in the league and left off many of the true elites.

And how many people understand Corsi?

Let alone Corsi Rel?

If you are an good player on a crappy team, your more likely to have your Corsi Rel higher than a great or elite player on a great or elite team.
- JIwasinskiJr

i agree that there are a lot of people who don't understand these stats, who don't properly interpret them, or who flat out dismiss them......several on this very site

travis is not one of those people. he gets it, and was one of the first people that i saw who truly focused on and wrote about these stats and this type of analysis.

i agree that there are a lot of people who don't understand these stats, who don't properly interpret them, or who flat out dismiss them......several on this very site

travis is not one of those people. he gets it, and was one of the first people that i saw who truly focused on and wrote about these stats and this type of analysis.
- sensarmy_11

I don't usually read his blogs, but it would have helped to point out what Corsi Rel actually means.

I actually went back and read the first paragraphs before the graphs to see if I missed it.

But again.

Corsi Rel is not really an individual stat, it is Player Corsi - Team Corsi......so it doesn't make any sense to post them with other players throughout the league unless your trying to make a specific point.

Example......say, Kopitar, Bergeron, Toews, etc., and how much of an impact on there teams overall Defense they make.

All three of these players play for great possession and defensive teams in the NHL.
All three of these players are considered the true elite of two way player.

In this example if one of the players has a even Corsi Rel then he isn't that much of an upgrade over the rest of his teammates.

But if a player does have a say +6 Corsi Rel, then that means that even on a really great possession team he is still above and beyond the overall team play.

A drop on Corsi Rel does not mean an overall decline in player possession and defensive play.

Chill out sens fan. I used hyperbole as an example to point out limitations of corsi as a stand alone stat.

In no way am I defending the Leafs crappy defensive play last season. They gave up like 40 shots per game and if I had to guess...they gave up a higher percentage of those as quality scoring chances. Tons of breakaways and odd man rushes.

Yost used Kessel in his analysis who has actually had a consistent slightly positive decent Corsi. Maybe that's due mainly to the fact that he shoots from the outside quite a bit(example of my own team's star shooting in poor situations) and has fewer defensive zone starts than other top stars - which are things I would want to include in my analysis of my own teams players for the purpose of accuracy and improvement.

Chill out sens fan. I used hyperbole as an example to point out limitations of corsi as a stand alone stat.

In no way am I defending the Leafs crappy defensive play last season. They gave up like 40 shots per game and if I had to guess...they gave up a higher percentage of those as quality scoring chances. Tons of breakaways and odd man rushes.

Yost used Kessel in his analysis who has actually had a consistent slightly positive decent Corsi. Maybe that's due mainly to the fact that he shoots from the outside quite a bit and has fewer defensive zone starts than other top stars - which are things I would want to include in my analysis of my own teams players for the purpose of accuracy and improvement.
- Allan Bester

It's because when he is on the ice he takes more shoots then the rest of his team usually does when he IS NOT on the ice.

Again....

Player Corsi-minus-team Corsi=Corai Rel

It's is a comparison between an individual player and his team.

See senators guy! This guy didn't understand what it means.

And I'm just trying to point out the importance of explaining these numbers to people new to them.

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Jonathan Toews
Anze Kopitar
Jeff Carter
Steven Stamkos
Ryan Getzlaf
Ryan Kesler
Claude Giroux
Matt Duchene
John Tavares
Tyler Seguin
Eric Staal
Ryan O'Reilly
Nathan MacKinnon
David Krejci
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Henrik Sedin
Pavel Datsyuk
David Backes
Paul Stastny
Nicklas Backstrom

Does that qualify as "a few"?
- tkecanuck341

lol, youre serious? put joe thorntons top line against these centers', and he dominates 90% of them.
I can see the obvious choice in the penguin bros, stammer, toews, getzlaf, backstrom, JT, & datsuk. Outside of that, no. Even at his age hes outsmarting and out playing most of these guys. playoff kopi doesnt count

lol, youre serious? put joe thorntons top line against these centers', and he dominates 90% of them.
I can see the obvious choice in the penguin bros, stammer, toews, getzlaf, backstrom, JT, & datsuk. Outside of that, no. Even at his age hes outsmarting and out playing most of these guys. playoff kopi doesnt count
- Dr3aMWeav3r

It's funny that you think that Getzlaf is better than Kopitar. Shows you don't stay up past your bedtime to watch Pacific Division hockey.

Excepting Crosby, Toews, and MAYBE Stamkos, Kopitar is better than everyone on this list, including Jumbo Joe Thornton.

It's funny that you think that Getzlaf is better than Kopitar. Shows you don't stay up past your bedtime to watch Pacific Division hockey.

Excepting Crosby, Toews, and MAYBE Stamkos, Kopitar is better than everyone on this list, including Jumbo Joe Thornton.
- tkecanuck341

You couldn't possibly be a Kings fan

lol, youre serious? put joe thorntons top line against these centers', and he dominates 90% of them.
I can see the obvious choice in the penguin bros, stammer, toews, getzlaf, backstrom, JT, & datsuk. Outside of that, no. Even at his age hes outsmarting and out playing most of these guys. playoff kopi doesnt count
- Dr3aMWeav3r

The problem with your choices that would beat jumbo joe is odd. There are two types of players and it's not all about who scores the most goals anymore.

You have points-against-points.......fire-against-fire.....say Malkin, Crosby, or stamkoes against jumbo joe and who can score more than the other.

Or points-vs-efficiency.......fire-against-water....say Kopitar, Toews, Datsyuk or Bergeron against jumbo joe.

His point may be that there are players that may put up more points then Joe and there are players that may prevent and score combine more than Joe.

The Cup winners HAVE ALL HAD at least ONE shut down center over the last half dozen years.
Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, Jordan Stall, Datsyuk, etc.

Seems like there should be an obvious trend that having a forward that is leading the NHL in points IS NOT IMPORTANT!

But having an ALL AROUND center is IMPORTANT!!!

You couldn't possibly be a Kings fan
- sbroads24

Come on man!!

Don't leave off my boy Bergeron!

Come on man!!

Don't leave off my boy Bergeron!
- JIwasinskiJr

I very nearly included Bergeron on this list. He is an excellent player and was very deserving of the Selke trophy this year. He is as good of, if not a better shutdown forward than Kopitar is. However, the reason that I don't have him on this list is because Kopitar is also consistently and undisputedly the best offensive player on his team, while Bergeron is not.

I very nearly included Bergeron on this list. He is an excellent player and was very deserving of the Selke trophy this year. He is as good of, if not a better shutdown forward than Kopitar is. However, the reason that I don't have him on this list is because Kopitar is also consistently and undisputedly the best offensive player on his team, while Bergeron is not.
- tkecanuck341

I feel you guys broke the recent trend.

A shut down center.

A scoring center.

Recently, because Kopitar doesn't have a scoring center, for that matter neither doesn't Toews.

But, with history and Corsi and other advance stats I think it's harder and harder to leave Bergeron off that ELITE list.

Your kings where the best possession team in the league and the bruins were fourth.

www.extraskater.com/playe...=2013&sit=5v5&sort=cf_pct

But, even with being the best teams in the league, they ARE FAR BETTER THAN THERE TEAM STILL!

As you said, Bergeron may be better than Kopitar defensively, BUT he still put up 30 goals.

Still don't think he gets the respect he deserves. BUT, neither does Kopitar.

In fact, it seems more obvious every year, that there needs to be a change of thinking with the players in the NHL.

There ARE TWO TYPES.

Points guys, always trying to score.

Efficiency guys, shutting down the other team AND scoring.

I'm sorry, but Crosby is considered the best player in the world, along with Malkin, and Stamkoes, etc., and Bergeron is always playing better than them head to head.

Especially in the playoffs, so how is he not considered ELEITE, if he shuts these guys down and still puts up points.

I will just never get the short sighted nature of most hockey fans.

Tanner Glass, haha.

Welcome to the Ottawa Senators forum, where all hockey is played 5-on-5, allowing you to completely judge a player's value by their Corsi and +/-.

Do I have to school you yet again sonny? Dont you get sick of me making you look stupid?
- Iggysbff

you make yourself look stupid by trolling just about every thread.
The oilers gave up the most goals last year, yet you continually point out the deficiencies of other teams D/Goaltending. Its kinda humorous really

In fact, it seems more obvious every year, that there needs to be a change of thinking with the players in the NHL.

There ARE TWO TYPES.

Points guys, always trying to score.

Efficiency guys, shutting down the other team AND scoring.

I'm sorry, but Crosby is considered the best player in the world, along with Malkin, and Stamkoes, etc., and Bergeron is always playing better than them head to head.

Especially in the playoffs, so how is he not considered ELEITE, if he shuts these guys down and still puts up points.

I will just never get the short sighted nature of most hockey fans.
- JIwasinskiJr

its' not short sighted, it's the way players have been judged for 100 years. offense is almost always viewed as more important than a 2-way game.....when discussing elite players. the guy who scores 100pts and is only okay defensively will be viewed as a better player then the guy who scores 75 and is excellent 2-way player. it's always been that way, it likely always will be that way.

until recently, with the introduction of advanced stats (which aren't perfect, but give people a good idea) there was really no tangible way to judge a players defensive ability.....you really only had the "eye test", which we all know is incredibly subjective, and most times, incredibly bias. offense was easy to judge....goals, assits, points..... tangible evidence that a player was elite. perhaps now that there's a fairly reliable way to judge a player at both ends of the ice, the defensive side of the game will start to become more important.............and really, it has, which is why guys like toews, kopitar, and bergeron are viewed by most as better players than guys like ovechkin, kessel, etc......despite not usually scoring as much.

i'm also not sure why you feel that bergeron is not considered elite............i think most people feel he's very elite. perhaps not offensively elite, but he absolutely has an elite level overall game.....which is why he's won the selke twice (most selke winners either are, or will be, HOF players.....makes the winner pretty elite IMO)

It's funny that you think that Getzlaf is better than Kopitar. Shows you don't stay up past your bedtime to watch Pacific Division hockey.

Excepting Crosby, Toews, and MAYBE Stamkos, Kopitar is better than everyone on this list, including Jumbo Joe Thornton.
- tkecanuck341

come on man.........kopitar is ABSOLUTELY not better than crosby, toews, stamkos, and malkin.

he's in the same class as getzlaf, giroux, tavares, etc.

he's an elite center, top 10 in the NHL no doubt, but take off the homer glasses man.

I think a lot of people either avoid the entire analytics debate or they pretend they understand what they do not understand. Pretty easy to look at Boston or LA or Chicago and see how winning puck possession teams strangle opposing teams every night. On the other hand, on a bad night Buffalo gets badly outplayed and outshot on nearly every shift.

So the data likely clusters positively for the players on a winning team and negatively for players on losing teams. I understand the relative weighting that enables you to compare teammates and find the guy that might be performing above the team base line.

But I have real difficulty when my head and my eyes come into conflict. For example, I do not understand the efficacy of the relative Corsi numbers for Turris, Spezza and Karlsson from last season. This is especially the case when you consider the plus/minus of each player. Turris was plus 23, Spezza minus 26 and Karlsson was minus 15. Even more confusing are the rave reviews of the outstanding Corsi numbers for Hemsky during his short stay in Ottawa. His off the chart Corsi numbers need to be understood as also producing a minus 2 during the same period of games.

Goal differential is a hugely important number in measuring overall team performance. I understand that it gets really sloppy and often misleading when applied to the individual player. But, does not Corsi have exactly the same weakness? I know what I see when I see Turris, Spezza, Karlsson and Hemsky. I fear Corsi tells me less or even misleads me when addressing the team value for those specific players.

What does this Corsi Rel tell you about these players?

What's what I want to know.

Because Corsi Rel is based on not only the players individually, but also how they compare to the rest of the team.

So if for example, Chara plays for the bruins and his Corsi Rel is only 1.9, does that make his a bad player?

No, because the Corsi Rel includes a players individual Cosri number minus the teams total Corsi number.

Therefore if you play on a good possession team like the bruins, kings, blues, hawks, the team Corsi is already so high because of the team defense,the chances of your Corsi rel on being through the roof are slim to none.

Hence why chara's is so low. Also, Chara had the highest Quality of competition among d men except for......this kinda funny Phanuf and Gnnarrsson for the leafs. And among the Norris finalists he had the highest D zone starts.

All I was trying to say is that looking at Corsi Rel, you HAVE to look at the teams numbers too!

Sorry if I misunderstood you.
- JIwasinskiJr

For the record, a corsi rel of 1.9 is still foolishly good.

i agree that there are a lot of people who don't understand these stats, who don't properly interpret them, or who flat out dismiss them......several on this very site

travis is not one of those people. he gets it, and was one of the first people that i saw who truly focused on and wrote about these stats and this type of analysis.
- sensarmy_11

I personally haven't really looked that much into advanced stats. From what I do know, I see the use for them in determining how mid crop players can be helpful to a current lineup.

The problem I have is everyone has such a hard-on over them that they are only using them to debate which player is better. How Toews is better than Crosby because of his Corsi, or how Chicago is better than Edmonton because they are a better puck possession team.

I don't need advance stats to tell me if a guy is a superstar, nor do I need advance stats to tell me that Edmonton sucks and Chicago is great.

That's my take on them anyway.

I personally haven't really looked that much into advanced stats. From what I do know, I see the use for them in determining how mid crop players can be helpful to a current lineup.

The problem I have is everyone has such a hard-on over them that they are only using them to debate which player is better. How Toews is better than Crosby because of his Corsi, or how Chicago is better than Edmonton because they are a better puck possession team.

I don't need advance stats to tell me if a guy is a superstar, nor do I need advance stats to tell me that Edmonton sucks and Chicago is great.

That's my take on them anyway.
- l3ig_l2ecl

I am old enough to remember when plus/minus was a rage. But not long after people began to understand the obvious deficiencies in the number. Yet it is still a useful indicator. Goal differential for me is the single most important long team indicator in projecting team performance.

Right now, today, I doubt the reliability of the adjusted work force numbers produced by StatsCan. I understand that the number is a baseline and fluctuations in the number can be important. But, the actual number really does not mean much. And, the number when compared to a similar US number is less than useless.

So. If you compare the relative Corsi for Spezza and Bergeron does it provide a better reflection their contribution. Or is goal differential a more precise measure. Now add Turris into the mix in any comparison with both Bergeron on Spezza. I just want someone show me how the numbers correspond to what my eyes are telling me.

I am old enough to remember when plus/minus was a rage. But not long after people began to understand the obvious deficiencies in the number. Yet it is still a useful indicator. Goal differential for me is the single most important long team indicator in projecting team performance.

Right now, today, I doubt the reliability of the adjusted work force numbers produced by StatsCan. I understand that the number is a baseline and fluctuations in the number can be important. But, the actual number really does not mean much. And, the number when compared to a similar US number is less than useless.

So. If you compare the relative Corsi for Spezza and Bergeron does it provide a better reflection their contribution. Or is goal differential a more precise measure. Now add Turris into the mix in any comparison with both Bergeron on Spezza. I just want someone show me how the numbers correspond to what my eyes are telling me.
- spatso

In all honesty probably neither. If goal differential was the case on 'ranking player's then it would indicate Brad Marchand is a better player than John Tavares. (just as an example). I don't think you'l find many GM's wishing they had Marchand more than Tavares.

Also i agree with you that advanced stats don't really mean anything. They are great to view. But they are not a predictive stat. They are useless in forecasting anything in the future. So what are they really used for?

CORSI told us that David Clarkson would be the best Leafs player last year. I don't even think Yost could make the argument that, in fact, he was.

Also, below is a writer using advanced stats to predict the standings last year. Let's just say he was a bit wayward in predicted Ottawa and New Jersey being the top two team in the NHL.

http://bleacherreport.com...al-for-the-2013-14-season

Sidney Crosby
Evgeni Malkin
Jonathan Toews
Anze Kopitar
Jeff Carter
Steven Stamkos
Ryan Getzlaf
Ryan Kesler
Claude Giroux
Matt Duchene
John Tavares
Tyler Seguin
Eric Staal
Ryan O'Reilly
Nathan MacKinnon
David Krejci
Patrice Bergeron
Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Henrik Sedin
Pavel Datsyuk
David Backes
Paul Stastny
Nicklas Backstrom

Does that qualify as "a few"?
- tkecanuck341

lol

In all honesty probably neither. If goal differential was the case on 'ranking player's then it would indicate Brad Marchand is a better player than John Tavares. (just as an example). I don't think you'l find many GM's wishing they had Marchand more than Tavares.

Also i agree with you that advanced stats don't really mean anything. They are great to view. But they are not a predictive stat. They are useless in forecasting anything in the future. So what are they really used for?

CORSI told us that David Clarkson would be the best Leafs player last year. I don't even think Yost could make the argument that, in fact, he was.

Also, below is a writer using advanced stats to predict the standings last year. Let's just say he was a bit wayward in predicted Ottawa and New Jersey being the top two team in the NHL.

http://bleacherreport.com...al-for-the-2013-14-season
- walshyleafsfan

I forgot about Clarkson. Reminds me of US military intelligence having to study Far East astrology during the Vietnam Nam war. Astrology influenced the deployment of forces. Not because the US believed the relationship of the moon and stars would determine outcomes. Rather they knew the enemy made choices based on their study of astrology.

So, if Corsi gives me a better number for Marchand than Tavares what is the protocol that enables you to give any credibility to either players Corsi number.

come on man.........kopitar is ABSOLUTELY not better than crosby, toews, giroux,stamkos, and malkin.

he's in the same class as getzlaf, tavares, etc.

he's an elite center, top 10 in the NHL no doubt, but take off the homer glasses man.
- sensarmy_11

FTFY