No, what's silly is labeling a quality defenseman a 5/6 defenseman . And really the LTIR situation with Pronger, has zero to do with MacDonald.
- MJL

Clearly you didn’t see I was talking about Andrew Macdonald. Or you haven’t seen him play much. I don't care about Pronger's situation, my point was when you're butting up against the cap you don't give a huge chunk of coin to a marginal player. Or maybe that's good business to you. *shrug*

Clearly you didn’t see I was talking about Andrew Macdonald. Or you haven’t seen him play much. I don't care about Pronger's situation, my point was when you're butting up against the cap you don't give a huge chunk of coin to a marginal player. Or maybe that's good business to you. *shrug*
- Isles_since_6

Clearly when discussing a 5/6 defenseman I'm not talking about Pronger. Mentioning Pronger was just in reply to your response that the Flyers need to place him on LTIR. That was a silly comment.

The problem here is that you're approaching this situation that MacDonald is a marginal player, as if it was a fact. It's not a fact. In fact it's really a misinformed opinion. It's either that, or a clear bias for some reason. Credible NHL analysts such as Bill Meltzer and Bill Clement think that MacDonald is a solid puck moving top 4 NHl defenseman. And I agree with them. And really, just from a common sense standpoint, if MacDonald was a marginal player as you state, why wouldn't the Flyers pro scouting department see that also? I think it's obvious. There's a lot of factors that went into MacDonald and how he was overplayed and overused with the Isles simply because they didn't have anyone else. But use MacDonald as a 20 minute a game 2nd pairing puck moving defenseman, who is solid in his own end, in the right matchups, and he's a solid player. And a player that will make the Flyers a better team. Snow wanted him back for the same reasons. Anything else about MacDonald, is pure hyperbole.

so you are agreeing with me. i think its equal parts cap relief for flyers plus pronger gets paid. these idiots were saying it has nothing to do with the 35+ contract.
- flyershockey

Yea. There is no reason for Pronger to do this for the Flyers. He could retire and let Flyers deal with his contract, not get paid and move on. However he gets paid to not retire so he does that.

Clearly when discussing a 5/6 defenseman I'm not talking about Pronger. Mentioning Pronger was just in reply to your response that the Flyers need to place him on LTIR. That was a silly comment.

The problem here is that you're approaching this situation that MacDonald is a marginal player, as if it was a fact. It's not a fact. In fact it's really a misinformed opinion. It's either that, or a clear bias for some reason. Credible NHL analysts such as Bill Meltzer and Bill Clement think that MacDonald is a solid puck moving top 4 NHl defenseman. And I agree with them. And really, just from a common sense standpoint, if MacDonald was a marginal player as you state, why wouldn't the Flyers pro scouting department see that also? I think it's obvious. There's a lot of factors that went into MacDonald and how he was overplayed and overused with the Isles simply because they didn't have anyone else. But use MacDonald as a 20 minute a game 2nd pairing puck moving defenseman, who is solid in his own end, in the right matchups, and he's a solid player. And a player that will make the Flyers a better team. Snow wanted him back for the same reasons. Anything else about MacDonald, is pure hyperbole.
- MJL

Well because other people think that if you are Flyers fan or work for them clearly you don't know hockey for some odd reason..... Flyers overpay for talent, yes but they do so to get the player they want. Free Agency is a bidding War, highest bid wins.

Yea. There is no reason for Pronger to do this for the Flyers. He could retire and let Flyers deal with his contract, not get paid and move on. However he gets paid to not retire so he does that.
- xShoot4WarAmpsx

I think knowing how it would screw the Flyers if he retired is also part of it.

so you are agreeing with me. i think its equal parts cap relief for flyers plus pronger gets paid. these idiots were saying it has nothing to do with the 35+ contract.
- flyershockey

Just like you were saying that we dont know if he wants to retire or not, you dont know whether it has "equal parts" to do with getting paid or screwing the flyers cap. So us idiots could be right.

Let me pose you this question: if pronger signed his deal when he was 33 years old and got injured would he retire or continue to collect his paycheck? i think its obvious...

1. Snow offering amac a contract period caused most isles fan’s hearts to stop, until it was rejected and we could breathe again
2. Kulemin and Grabovski together add to our forward depth. Kulemin was overpaid, and is a risk if he can’t regain at least some of the form he had playing with Grabovski in Toronto. If he scored 15 goals I’d be satisfied. Overpaid? Absolutely. Cap space an issue? Not for us.
3. Vanek trade, covered extensively. You’ll find it hard to find an Isles fan who thinks that whole situation was even marginally favorable for us. We rip Snow more than anyone else does.
4. Using criticism of the Isles as a way to deflect overpaying a 5th/6th defenseman to the tune of 30 million dollars when the team needs LTIR to get under the cap is silly.
- Isles_since_6

Im not deflecting anything. I like MacDonald and the flyers cap position is manageable. The overblown criticisms about his game are things that are coachable. What is not is his mobility, Skill and instincts. Im sure the islanders felt the same way considering they played him 25 minutes a night and attempted to resign him.

lol. can I plead ignorance? as I first time offender, I should be able to plead ignorance.
- tweaver3312

that'll open the floodgates



still a big bowl of happiness in here?

Im not deflecting anything. I like MacDonald and the flyers cap position is manageable. The overblown criticisms about his game are things that are coachable. What is not is his mobility, Skill and instincts. Im sure the islanders felt the same way considering they played him 25 minutes a night and attempted to resign him.
- Baxter27

Watch him this year and tell me it's a good contract and a good player. I've watched him long enough to form my own opinion. I will say your coach is a ton better than ours, but his instincts are broken. You may change your opinion of him by November.

Watch him this year and tell me it's a good contract and a good player. I've watched him long enough to form my own opinion. I will say your coach is a ton better than ours, but his instincts are broken. You may change your opinion of him by November.
- Isles_since_6

I watched him for 20 games as a Flyer. His instincts aren't broken. He's solid defensively, he has the ability to avoid traffic and create time and space, and make a solid outlet pass to transition the puck. I think with a full training camp, he'll be more comfortable, and will be more aggressive offensively, and use his speed in moving up on the play. The only real criticism is that he's not a physical player, he's more finesse. But the skill and talent is evident. And his reads are solid in his own end.
With the loss of Timonen, the Flyers might be forced to overplay him and use him as more of a top pair defenseman, as the Isles had to. And I'm sure that unless the Flyers as a team improve drastically in 5 on 5 play, that MacDonald will struggle somewhat with that. He's not a top pair defenseman. But I'm smart enough to know the difference and recognize the situation.

I watched him for 20 games as a Flyer. His instincts aren't broken. He's solid defensively, he has the ability to avoid traffic and create time and space, and make a solid outlet pass to transition the puck. I think with a full training camp, he'll be more comfortable, and will be more aggressive offensively, and use his speed in moving up on the play. The only real criticism is that he's not a physical player, he's more finesse. But the skill and talent is evident. And his reads are solid in his own end.
With the loss of Timonen, the Flyers might be forced to overplay him and use him as more of a top pair defenseman, as the Isles had to. And I'm sure that unless the Flyers as a team improve drastically in 5 on 5 play, that MacDonald will struggle somewhat with that. He's not a top pair defenseman. But I'm smart enough to know the difference and recognize the situation.
- MJL

20 games is equal to watching him for 6 years as an Islander? okay. That seems reasonable.

20 games is equal to watching him for 6 years as an Islander? okay. That seems reasonable.
- Isles_since_6

That really depends on who is doing the watching.

That really depends on who is doing the watching.
- MJL

this is a good read, might help you understand what you're seeing. Or not seeing.

http://www.jewelsfromthec...slanders-andrew-macdonald

this is a good read, might help you understand what you're seeing. Or not seeing.

http://www.jewelsfromthec...slanders-andrew-macdonald
- Isles_since_6

Another author who doesn't understand Corsi and uses it out of context. Too bad Holmgren didn't read that article before trading for and re-signing MacDonald! A player with MacDonald's skill and talent would thrive in LA with the support and team structure that they play with.

Here is one of the fundamental truths of Corsi. Sometimes a good player on a bad team, has poor Corsi numbers. The way the Isles had to overplay and over use him, I wouldn't expect him to have good numbers.

If the Flyers don't improve as a team defensively, and at 5 on 5 play. And are forced to overplay MacDonald, due to the loss of Timonen. He could struggle. Like I said previously. He's a 2nd pair top 4 defenseman. He is not a top pair shutdown defender, or even a top pair puck mover.

Another author who doesn't understand Corsi and uses it out of context. Too bad Holmgren didn't read that article before trading for and re-signing MacDonald! A player with MacDonald's skill and talent would thrive in LA with the support and team structure that they play with.

Here is one of the fundamental truths of Corsi. Sometimes a good player on a bad team, has poor Corsi numbers. The way the Isles had to overplay and over use him, I wouldn't expect him to have good numbers.

If the Flyers don't improve as a team defensively, and at 5 on 5 play. And are forced to overplay MacDonald, due to the loss of Timonen. He could struggle. Like I said previously. He's a 2nd pair top 4 defenseman. He is not a top pair shutdown defender, or even a top pair puck mover.
- MJL

I find it interesting you dismiss that without reading it. How can I tell? You didn't even try and explain how every player aside from Carkner who played with Amac had substantially higher numbers away from him. I'm not even touching on the fact that you've watched him for 20 games, but kindly explain that if you're much more versed in corsi. I'm curious.

he doesn't bring the stupid that hartnell brings
- 2Real

Yeah he just brings the lack of goal scoring, the softness and overall blah.

I find it interesting you dismiss that without reading it. How can I tell? You didn't even try and explain how every player aside from Carkner who played with Amac had substantially higher numbers away from him. I'm not even touching on the fact that you've watched him for 20 games, but kindly explain that if you're much more versed in corsi. I'm curious.
- Isles_since_6

I find it interesting that your assuming that I didn't read it. Do you know what the problem is with WOWY's? One sample size is pretty small, and when players that normally play together, are split up. The role that a player is placed in inevitably changes. It's not a good stat for those reasons. And Corsi really shouldn't be used to rate individual players due to the high rate of false data. What role were those players placed in, and who did they play against when moved away from MacDonald? If they played in better zone starts, and against lesser competition, or with better offensive players, that could explain it. All of those stats require context. The author failed to provide that context. He only uses the numbers to come to the conclusion that he wanted to come to. I'm extremely well versed in Corsi and it's use. And also it's frequent misuse.

I find it interesting that your assuming that I didn't read it. Do you know what the problem is with WOWY's? One sample size is pretty small, and when players that normally play together, are split up. The role that a player is placed in inevitably changes. It's not a good stat for those reasons. And Corsi really shouldn't be used to rate individual players due to the high rate of false data. What role were those players placed in, and who did they play against when moved away from MacDonald? If they played in better zone starts, and against lesser competition, or with better offensive players, that could explain it. All of those stats require context. The author failed to provide that context. He only uses the numbers to come to the conclusion that he wanted to come to. I'm extremely well versed in Corsi and it's use. And also it's frequent misuse.
- MJL

I believe snow offered him a deal because of our lack of depth (at least until our 8+ defensive prospects are ready to step in). Having watched all but 2 games last year, AMac was absolutely the player I did not want on the team, who caused numerous turnovers, blown assignments, lazy checking and plays even smaller than he is.

Gong show. If you follow advanced stats look up his stats. He made every single Isles defenseman substantially worse playing with him, and all of them showed large increases away from him.
- Isles_since_6

Well he made Luke schenn look like the hockey player he was suppose to be when he was drafted. I diddnt like him with Streit, too much of the same flaws. But on a team with guys like Grossmann and Coburn. They don't have to do as much of the defensive lifting.

We just need them to move the puck.

I find it interesting that your assuming that I didn't read it. Do you know what the problem is with WOWY's? One sample size is pretty small, and when players that normally play together, are split up. The role that a player is placed in inevitably changes. It's not a good stat for those reasons. And Corsi really shouldn't be used to rate individual players due to the high rate of false data. What role were those players placed in, and who did they play against when moved away from MacDonald? If they played in better zone starts, and against lesser competition, or with better offensive players, that could explain it. All of those stats require context. The author failed to provide that context. He only uses the numbers to come to the conclusion that he wanted to come to. I'm extremely well versed in Corsi and it's use. And also it's frequent misuse.
- MJL

The interesting thing is that those small sample sizes would be more than 20 games. If this site allows you to search, go look in dans blog comments over the last year from isles fans regarding what we thought of amac.

I find it interesting that your assuming that I didn't read it. Do you know what the problem is with WOWY's? One sample size is pretty small, and when players that normally play together, are split up. The role that a player is placed in inevitably changes. It's not a good stat for those reasons. And Corsi really shouldn't be used to rate individual players due to the high rate of false data. What role were those players placed in, and who did they play against when moved away from MacDonald? If they played in better zone starts, and against lesser competition, or with better offensive players, that could explain it. All of those stats require context. The author failed to provide that context. He only uses the numbers to come to the conclusion that he wanted to come to. I'm extremely well versed in Corsi and it's use. And also it's frequent misuse.
- MJL

FINISH HIM!!!!

I find it interesting that your assuming that I didn't read it. Do you know what the problem is with WOWY's? One sample size is pretty small, and when players that normally play together, are split up. The role that a player is placed in inevitably changes. It's not a good stat for those reasons. And Corsi really shouldn't be used to rate individual players due to the high rate of false data. What role were those players placed in, and who did they play against when moved away from MacDonald? If they played in better zone starts, and against lesser competition, or with better offensive players, that could explain it. All of those stats require context. The author failed to provide that context. He only uses the numbers to come to the conclusion that he wanted to come to. I'm extremely well versed in Corsi and it's use. And also it's frequent misuse.
- MJL

Wall of text crits for 10k. You're winnar.

this thread's been a tough read.


every fan base has a few idiots.

how they all ended up in this one place at the same time is an unfortunate miracle.

Yeah he just brings the lack of goal scoring, the softness and overall blah.
- blacksheep1

considering hartnell's production has been declining ok

The interesting thing is that those small sample sizes would be more than 20 games. If this site allows you to search, go look in dans blog comments over the last year from isles fans regarding what we thought of amac.
- Isles_since_6

you got schooled son