Like Kopitar, Toews, and Bergeron?
- Ryan_Wilson

Those are all exceptional defensive players, putting them out there on the PK is different than putting Crosby or Malkin out there.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk are better than Crosby and Malkin defensively, but they only got 33 and 43 seconds of SH time per game last year respectively, compared to Crosby's 30 seconds. Stamkos gets about the same amount of SH time as Crosby.

He kinda did that this year. Just because people take Crosby's two way game for granted doesn't mean he doesn't absolutely slaughter it in the shutdown role.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com...s-Should-Thrive/177/60867
- Ryan_Wilson

Yeah this was a great blog, you did a great job in that one highlighting why Crosby was/is so important.

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of Crosby dedicating his game to defense. But now after revisiting that blog I am more interested in Crosby not lining up in the shut down roll!

Those are all exceptional defensive players, putting them out there on the PK is different than putting Crosby or Malkin out there.

Zetterberg and Datsyuk are better than Crosby and Malkin defensively, but they only got 33 and 43 seconds of SH time per game last year respectively, compared to Crosby's 30 seconds. Stamkos gets about the same amount of SH time as Crosby.
- hardnosed

Where does this misconception come from? Because Crosby scores more than those other guys he isn't as good defensively? Hogwash. He's the best in the world for a reason and it is because he is a complete player who also happens to produce offense at insane rates.

Crosby will never be nominated for the Selke Trophy and it will be because people assume he scores so much that he couldn't possibly be playing defense. It is rubbish.

He kinda did that this year. Just because people take Crosby's two way game for granted doesn't mean he doesn't absolutely slaughter it in the shutdown role.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com...s-Should-Thrive/177/60867
- Ryan_Wilson

That doesn't jibe with the fact that Crosby was on the ice for 63 even strength goals against last year, most on the team. So what we can surmise from the numbers (as if we didn't watch the games) is that Crosby's line played against high quality opposition, possessed the puck a lot while doing so, but gave up a lot of goals going the other way. That's not exactly slaughtering the shutdown role.

This is why advanced metrics are mostly hogwash.

Off topic.
This clip put me on board for the Downie signing.

Seeing guys like Olli Jokinen get 2.5 mil for 1 year makes the thought of 3.5 for another year of Sutter's service far more easy to swallow.

Well, that and his performance in the playoffs while playing with passable linemates.

Plus he's only 25. Seems like moving Sutter would just weaken a bottom 6 that they just went through a lot of effort to fix.

And Downie and Comeau are bottom 6 guys who haven't been primary penalty killers. Trading Sutter would make keeping Adams around more necessary.

Spaling/Dupuis/Goc/Sutter is actually a pretty fast and skilled penalty killing group.
- hardnosed

Nothing makes keeping Adams necessary.

Comeau actually did kill penalties in Calgary and New York. It wasn't until he went to Columbus that he stopped.

I think Downie could slot into the top 6 easily. While in Tampa he played with Vinnie and Tanguay. The following year he played with Stamkos and St. Louis. When Tampa cleaned house and sent him to Colorado he played with Duchene and O'Reilly and Landeskog and O'Reilly.

The point is, he can play with skilled guys if need be, and still produce and be effective.

That doesn't jibe with the fact that Crosby was on the ice for 63 even strength goals against last year, most on the team. So what we can surmise from the numbers (as if we didn't watch the games) is that Crosby's line played against high quality opposition, possessed the puck a lot while doing so, but gave up a lot of goals going the other way. That's not exactly slaughtering the shutdown role.

This is why advanced metrics are mostly hogwash.
- hardnosed

Your remedial understanding of the numbers doesn't make it hogwash, sorry.

Why is he still on the ice for 57.5% of all the goals for at even strength while playing in a shutdown role? How is that not slaughtering a shutdown role?

http://www.extraskater.co...sion?team=pit&sort=gf_pct

Just know that Johnston likes to use his best players on the PK so where Dan Bylsma never used Sid and Geno, that may happen now.
- Ryan_Wilson

Halle freaking luya!!

Been saying this for years.

Let your best players play in all situation. Not every single kill but once in awhile would be great.

Yet the pens wana get ride of him in every trade proposal I wonder why? Its ok Pitts embarrassing exit from the playoff last year was the real laugh.
- jake24242

What's embarrassing is your spelling and grammar throughout this thread. Yikes.

Your remedial understanding of the numbers doesn't make it hogwash, sorry.
- Ryan_Wilson

You don't have to insult me, just argue the facts. Shouldn't writers be above that, able to have a rational discussion without making it personal?

Why is he still on the ice for 57.5% of all the goals at even strength while playing in a shutdown role? How is that not slaughtering a shutdown role?

http://www.extraskater.co...sion?team=pit&sort=gf_pct
- Ryan_Wilson

His line scored more goals than they gave up, and that's evidence of slaughtering it in a shutdown role? Despite the fact that Crosby was on the ice for more even strength goals against than any other Penguin? Please explain to me how you can discount that, which was a trend that continued in the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong. Crosby is much better defensively than he's given credit for. Claiming that he slaughtered it in a shutdown role is just taking it way too far.

But you're basing this "shutdown" role almost entirely off the idea that he played against a high quality of competition. You also spent the past few seasons complaining that Byslma didn't line match enough, so if we buy that premise, it would mean that other teams' coaches were dictating the matchups, which by observation last year (more due to bottom six problems) was true.

So are you surprised that Crosby played against presumably the other team's best players? Also, many Eastern Conference teams try hard to match up with Crosby, and rightfully so, because he's the world's best player.

If Crosby was out there against Giroux's line or Bergeron's line, do you honestly think it was because Bylsma wanted Crosby to shut down those guys, and not the other way around?

Blysma couldn't go out of his way to get Crosby away from those kinds of lines, because he couldn't trust Sutter/Pyatt/Megna or whoever to keep up with a line like Giroux's. So he (and Crosby) had to eat it.

That doesn't mean Crosby is a bad defensive center, it just puts him far below the Toews/Bergerons/Kopitars of the world who are typically on the ice for less than 40 ES goals a year compared to Crosby's 63 last year, all while playing against not just quality competition, but the other team's top lines night in and night out.

You don't have to insult me, just argue the facts. Shouldn't writers be above that, able to have a rational discussion without making it personal?



His line scored more goals than they gave up, and that's evidence of slaughtering it in a shutdown role? Despite the fact that Crosby was on the ice for more even strength goals against than any other Penguin? Please explain to me how you can discount that, which was a trend that continued in the playoffs.

Don't get me wrong. Crosby is much better defensively than he's given credit for. Claiming that he slaughtered it in a shutdown role is just taking it way too far.

But you're basing this "shutdown" role almost entirely off the idea that he played against a high quality of competition. You also spent the past few seasons complaining that Byslma didn't line match enough, so if we buy that premise, it would mean that other teams' coaches were dictating the matchups, which by observation last year (more due to bottom six problems) was true.

So are you surprised that Crosby played against presumably the other team's best players? Also, many Eastern Conference teams try hard to match up with Crosby, and rightfully so, because he's the world's best player.

If Crosby was out there against Giroux's line or Bergeron's line, do you honestly think it was because Bylsma wanted Crosby to shut down those guys, and not the other way around?

Blysma couldn't go out of his way to get Crosby away from those kinds of lines, because he couldn't trust Sutter/Pyatt/Megna or whoever to keep up with a line like Giroux's. So he (and Crosby) had to eat it.

That doesn't mean Crosby is a bad defensive center, it just puts him far below the Toews/Bergerons/Kopitars of the world who are typically on the ice for less than 40 ES goals a year compared to Crosby's 63 last year, all while playing against not just quality competition, but the other team's top lines night in and night out.
- hardnosed

This is a well written rebuttal.
And I do tend to agree with you, I dont think Crosby is in a class with Toews, Bergeron etc either, I think his defensive game is to push the offense and force the opponent to respond to his line rather than the shutdown centers who I feel play more reactive hockey.

Im in defense of sutter. IMO he is a hell of a player and was arguably the best pens player after the deadline and postseason. Sure his numbers arent the greatest ( still better than most though), but the guy has great on ice character, good face off guy, great pk guy, and can be so clutch. Love Goc though too. The two are very similar, but when it comes to skill/character Sutter IMO is better than Goc.

Old and expensive. Wrong fit for this team.
- madmike71

You, When? WHEN? Have you contributed anything? ANYTHING! Positive to this board?

Martin would be your best d-man. (for 1 year)

Sutter would be a fit for your team. (and now he have no 2nd line center)
- Orpik44

fixed

I'd offer up Reimer,Franson and a pick

I want to see this team get younger, and Sutter does that. Sutter needs speed on his wings and I think the Pens are in a much better position now to make that happen than last year. But, as with all business decisions, this will come down to finances and if we look at the last couple of days Rutherford and his assistants have been doing a very good job. I have confidence they will make the right choice here again.

To me Sutter is easy. If you could get good value back, move him.

If not, qualify him. Pay no more than the qualifying offer. If he doesn't sign, he doesn't sign. Eventually he will.

I don't think he would return much than a few draft picks or some 3rd/4th liners, which we already have enough of.

I've never been a fan of his. A slightly above average player.

I like Goc WAY more at his number.

yeah, im not %100 on board with this either. we saw glimpses of greatness during the playoffs. i mean dont trade a guy because he got good. i know you wanna sell high and all but at one point in the playoffs he looked like our best player.

if he doesnt want to except a deal based on his numbers, then think about trading him.

Would you trade a drop in Crosby's overall point totals to ask him to become one of the best 2 way forwards in the game? I think if you challenged Crosby to win the Selke he'd rise to it, but those players don't usually garner 100+ point seasons.

Poll Question: would you challenge Crosby to win the Selke if it meant a drastic (20+ pts) drop in his overall points?
- stackthepads

My line of thought is actually quite the opposite. Getting a third line of Dupuis-Goc-Downie out there in a shutdown role should get Sid some better matchups. Sutter just doesn't have the physical attributes to be a shutdown guy.

Only issue I have with Sutter... is how much he was able to turn it on after he was on the chopping block as part of the Kesler trade pieces. Showed us the level he is capable of playing at, and that he was slacking off, or being a puss for whatever reason and turned it on at just the end.

If he would give that effort all season, hes worth 3 mil a year (yes, i'll give him a 300K raise for a round number). If not, package him with Martin (or once again, Skuds LOL), to try and get cap space and picks or that 2nd line winger.

Also, happy "Day of trading"... according to the super reliable and never wrong, EK (E4) rumor.

Only issue I have with Sutter... is how much he was able to turn it on after he was on the chopping block as part of the Kesler trade pieces. Showed us the level he is capable of playing at, and that he was slacking off, or being a puss for whatever reason and turned it on at just the end.

If he would give that effort all season, hes worth 3 mil a year (yes, i'll give him a 300K raise for a round number). If not, package him with Martin (or once again, Skuds LOL), to try and get cap space and picks or that 2nd line winger.

Also, happy "Day of trading"... according to the super reliable and never wrong, EK (E4) rumor.
- Guile

He definitely played better, but he also had much better linemates after the deadline as well. Bennett was back and he had Stempniak too. Can't say I don't think that was a part of it. You're right though. Still can't justify more than $3M. I'd be okay if he got that on a bridge deal. Maybe 2 years. If he improves then talk about a bigger raise. BUT, Goc and Spaling make it easier to say, get something for him now.

Ryan, Sutter's new contract at 3.5-4 mil will be peanuts in a couple years from now with the cap only going up. Put decent wingers on his line and the kid can actually play. Avoid players like pyatt and glass. Besides, if they trade Sutter, they will constantly be in position looking to sign stop-gap 3rd line centers until they can score one through the draft or trade. In addition, Sutter brings defensive responsibilities to his game unlike our other players. Lets see how he does with his new wingers and new coaching staff at a very reasonable cap hit before we ship him off.

He definitely played better, but he also had much better linemates after the deadline as well. Bennett was back and he had Stempniak too. Can't say I don't think that was a part of it. You're right though. Still can't justify more than $3M. I'd be okay if he got that on a bridge deal. Maybe 2 years. If he improves then talk about a bigger raise. BUT, Goc and Spaling make it easier to say, get something for him now.
- HopintheCordoba

If it was just the line being better as a whole, I wouldn't hold it against him. But it was pretty noticeable he gained a step and hustled more. Obviously, almost every player who has been in Pittsburgh in the last decade wants to stay here. He took that for granted and was pretty horrified at having to move from a constant Cup contender to a team in the bottom half of the league.

That kind of wake up call should never be needed for someone to get their ass moving. Should just deal him to the Flyers, you either keep your ass moving or Giroux grabs hold of it.

If it was just the line being better as a whole, I wouldn't hold it against him. But it was pretty noticeable he gained a step and hustled more. Obviously, almost every player who has been in Pittsburgh in the last decade wants to stay here. He took that for granted and was pretty horrified at having to move from a constant Cup contender to a team in the bottom half of the league.

That kind of wake up call should never be needed for someone to get their ass moving. Should just deal him to the Flyers, you either keep your ass moving or Giroux grabs hold of it.
- Guile

Got a little bored...I left guys I think can possibly compete at camp for potential spots there. Kapanen excluded because he's not listed there yet. But I would've included him. Zatkoff, Megna, Zlobin and Samuelsson included in that. Cap would change slightly if those guys get sent down or moved. I traded out for Scuderi for a few pucks(We can pray right?) and Martin for Tatar. Re-signed Sutter and Stempniak. Buried Adams. Don't know if they'll try to move him. He's not just DB's favorite. He was a favorite in CAR too and he's also still cheap. I just don't like him taking a roster spot.

Chris Kunitz ($3.850m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Tomas Tatar ($1.500m)
Beau Bennett ($0.900m) / Evgeni Malkin ($9.500m) / Patric Hornqvist ($4.250m)
Lee Stempniak ($2.500m) / Brandon Sutter ($3.000m) / Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Blake Comeau ($0.700m) / Marcel Goc ($1.200m) / Steve Downie ($1.000m)
Anton Zlobin ($0.608m) / Jayson Megna ($0.874m) / Nick Spaling ($1.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Kris Letang ($7.250m) / Christian Ehrhoff ($4.000m)
Brian Dumoulin ($0.832m) / Simon Despres ($0.851m)
Olli Maatta ($0.894m) / Scott Harrington ($0.589m)
Philip Samuelsson ($0.913m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Thomas Greiss ($1.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.600m)
BURIED
Craig Adams ($0.600m)

I'm not a big fan of Sutter by any means....... But....... The dude does score timely goals.