Yeah, I know they have more skill than him, but Rinaldo has SOME skill. Not a ton, but he's a good skater and can stickhandle a bit.

I just feel that he's not getting a real chance. He'll never be a 15-goal scorer, but when you play fewer minutes than Jon Scott, you don't get much of a chance to produce.
- jmatchett383

They do give him chances. On the pk early in the year. He's been bumped up on other lines. He is completely ineffective playing more than 7-8 minutes. He gets away from his style of game Bc he can't sustain the energy. And if he gets away from that he's a major detriment

Of course. The checker can't play both roles -- hitter and puck retriever. There are just too many strikes against him as a player for me to want him in the lineup on a regular basis.

I just believe that he's hurting the team much more than he's helping.
- bradleyc4

As Bill pointed out that he penalties taken far exceeded penalties drawn, then yea, he's hurting the team. Getting under the opposition's skin and drawing penalties has value. But I think having a player that can contribute in more ways, has more value.

To me, the perfect 4th line would have a combo of grit, physicality and skill. Something along the lines of: Raffl-Laughton-Akeson would work for me.

Raffl is solid defensively, has good wheels, works the boards and will mix it up some, and has some skill. Laughton is, from everything I've heard and seen, a gritty player who is also good defensively, will mix it up physically and he has some skill as well.
Akeson gives the line even more skill which is never a bad thing and if he earns a spot in the top 9, Rinaldo can fill that last spot on the 4th line til you find someone better.

Yep, there are many ways to counter a strong forecheck. Rangers have been doing it vs. the Canadiens.
- bradleyc4

Im just thinking out loud of how to try and divide "good" hits from "bad" hits. Due to advanced stats, thinks like hits and blocked shots are considered "bad" things. Although everyone knows that they are not always bad things. I dunno its hard to explain and probably impossible to quantify.

They do give him chances. On the pk early in the year. He's been bumped up on other lines. He is completely ineffective playing more than 7-8 minutes. He gets away from his style of game Bc he can't sustain the energy. And if he gets away from that he's a major detriment
- Just5

Am I crazy or did he end up on G's line once upon a time?

As Bill pointed out that he penalties taken far exceeded penalties drawn, then yea, he's hurting the team. Getting under the opposition's skin and drawing penalties has value. But I think having a player that can contribute in more ways, has more value.
- MJL

Agreed, I could live with Rinaldo if he was chipping in 10 goals and 20 points, but he really brings nothing to the table offensively

Unless Rinaldo can show a bit more discipline and a bit more skill, I'd only be interested in him as the 13th/spare forward. I want guys on my 4th line that can at least chip in 7-10 goals and 15-25 points.
- BiggE

Exactly how I feel..

My reasonable dream lineup for this upcoming season.

Simmonds-G-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Raffl-Couts-Kulemin
Winnick-Laughton-McGinn

Rinaldo 13th

Seeya Vinny.

Im just thinking out loud of how to try and divide "good" hits from "bad" hits. Due to advanced stats, thinks like hits and blocked shots are considered "bad" things. Although everyone knows that they are not always bad things. I dunno its hard to explain and probably impossible to quantify.
- FlyersSteve118

Adv stats takes the stance that hits/blocks might not be as inherently valuable as they appear on the surface -- that doesn't equate to bad. They just don't put much stock in them is all.

Adv stats takes the stance that hits/blocks might not be as inherently valuable as they appear on the surface -- that doesn't equate to bad. They just don't put much stock in them at all.
- Tomahawk

Yeah, thats why i said "bad" in quotes and its hard to explain.

Agreed, I could live with Rinaldo if he was chipping in 10 goals and 20 points, but he really brings nothing to the table offensively
- BiggE

I'm not even concerned with offense, although that would certainly be nice. I'd like to see him develop into a better defensive player, not just on the PK, but at 5 on 5 play. Sometimes the better play is to get back in good backchecking position, rather then going for a hit that really isn't going to have a lot of effect. Although hits can be cumulative. Like to see him become a player that can be trusted late in game with the lead. During the season, that would help other players save some energy. He has to evolve as a player, and I don't think he did that last season. He's stuck in the rut of being just a pest and a hitter. And I think the Flyers share some culpability in that.

Yeah, thats why i said "bad" in quotes and its hard to explain.
- FlyersSteve118

It's like how a lot of us treat +/- around here... it's there, we consider it, but we hesitate to draw any firm conclusions from it.

Adv stats takes the stance that hits/blocks might not be as inherently valuable as they appear on the surface -- that doesn't equate to bad. They just don't put much stock in them is all.
- Tomahawk

Some are good, some are bad. If a hit is used to separate the puck carrier from the puck, or if it's of the Rinaldo vs. Iginla or Rinaldo vs. Doughty variety, they're good. If it's a guy running around who takes himself out of the play because he's "finishing his check" after the puck has already been moved, they're not so good.

Exactly how I feel..

My reasonable dream lineup for this upcoming season.

Simmonds-G-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Raffl-Couts-Kulemin
Winnick-Laughton-McGinn

Rinaldo 13th

Seeya Vinny.
- jak521

I'd rather get rid of VL and go with

Hartnell-G-Jake
Jokinen-Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Raffl
Rasmussen or Komarov-Laughton-Akeson
Rinaldo

Get rid of VL, use the freed up $$ to sign Jokinen (may even win a shootout now and then as an added bonus) and sign either Rasmussen or Komarov for the 4th line. Also you can flip Raffl and Akeson depending on whether you are looking more for offense or defense from the 3rd line.

I'm not even concerned with offense, although that would certainly be nice. I'd like to see him develop into a better defensive player, not just on the PK, but at 5 on 5 play. Sometimes the better play is to get back in good backchecking position, rather then going for a hit that really isn't going to have a lot of effect. Although hits can be cumulative. Like to see him become a player that can be trusted late in game with the lead. During the season, that would help other players save some energy. He has to evolve as a player, and I don't think he did that last season. He's stuck in the rut of being just a pest and a hitter. And I think the Flyers share some culpability in that.
- MJL

Exactly how I feel..

My reasonable dream lineup for this upcoming season.

Simmonds-G-Voracek
Hartnell-Schenn-Read
Raffl-Couts-Kulemin
Winnick-Laughton-McGinn

Rinaldo 13th

Seeya Vinny.
- jak521

Simmonds is primarily a RW and Kulemin is normally on the left side, but other than that I like it a lot. Really hope to get out of the Vinny scenario.

It's like how a lot of us treat +/- around here... it's there, we consider it, but we hesitate to draw any firm conclusions from it.
- Tomahawk

Except that Vinny L is terrible at ice hockey, +/- proves that.

If .... big IF ....... he could be trusted, I could see him with Couts and Read. But he is just too much of a wildcard.

While I also don’t like skating sides of beef, I’d rather have a McCarthy or a Brashear type over a Rinaldo or a Carbomb as long as they can keep up with the play and make safe plays with the puck.
- GeorgeBailey

Agreed. I actually liked both of them as Flyers.

I'm not even concerned with offense, although that would certainly be nice. I'd like to see him develop into a better defensive player, not just on the PK, but at 5 on 5 play. Sometimes the better play is to get back in good backchecking position, rather then going for a hit that really isn't going to have a lot of effect. Although hits can be cumulative. Like to see him become a player that can be trusted late in game with the lead. During the season, that would help other players save some energy. He has to evolve as a player, and I don't think he did that last season. He's stuck in the rut of being just a pest and a hitter. And I think the Flyers share some culpability in that.
- MJL

Nice post.

I'd rather get rid of VL and go with

Hartnell-G-Jake
Jokinen-Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Raffl
Rasmussen or Komarov-Laughton-Akeson
Rinaldo

Get rid of VL, use the freed up $$ to sign Jokinen (may even win a shootout now and then as an added bonus) and sign either Rasmussen or Komarov for the 4th line. Also you can flip Raffl and Akeson depending on whether you are looking more for offense or defense from the 3rd line.
- BiggE

If we are moving out Vinny and adding a top 2 line winger.. I would go with Setoguchi.

I'm not even concerned with offense, although that would certainly be nice. I'd like to see him develop into a better defensive player, not just on the PK, but at 5 on 5 play. Sometimes the better play is to get back in good backchecking position, rather then going for a hit that really isn't going to have a lot of effect. Although hits can be cumulative. Like to see him become a player that can be trusted late in game with the lead. During the season, that would help other players save some energy. He has to evolve as a player, and I don't think he did that last season. He's stuck in the rut of being just a pest and a hitter. And I think the Flyers share some culpability in that.
- MJL

I agree with all of that, I just don't want a forward taking a regular shift who only chips in 2 goals and 4 measly points in 67 games. IMO, that is just not acceptable.

I'd rather get rid of VL and go with

Hartnell-G-Jake
Jokinen-Schenn-Simmonds
Read-Couturier-Raffl
Rasmussen or Komarov-Laughton-Akeson
Rinaldo

Get rid of VL, use the freed up $$ to sign Jokinen (may even win a shootout now and then as an added bonus) and sign either Rasmussen or Komarov for the 4th line. Also you can flip Raffl and Akeson depending on whether you are looking more for offense or defense from the 3rd line.
- BiggE

A lot of people would love yo get rid of VL, but that won't be as easily done as said. But it's a possibility.

Does anyone actually know anything about Rasmussen? A lot of people see him as a bottom-6 answer, but is he just another Mika Pyorala?

If we are moving out Vinny and adding a top 2 line winger.. I would go with Setoguchi.
- jak521

Thats fine

A lot of people would love yo get rid of VL, but that won't be as easily done as said. But it's a possibility.

Does anyone actually know anything about Rasmussen? A lot of people see him as a bottom-6 answer, but is he just another Mika Pyorala?
- jmatchett383

Bill compared him relatively favorably to Raffl, and, if thats the case, I think he'd be more than fine on the 4th line.

Bill compared him relatively favorably to Raffl, and, if thats the case, I think he'd be more than fine on the 4th line.
- BiggE

The scouting reports I've seen make him seem more like a Dan LaCouture/Erik Rasmussen-type.