Hey, if Laughton comes in and makes the team and earns a spot, by all means, great.

He was drafted to be a player, and he's produced at the junior level. I am not bashing Laughton.

Let's just see him actually get it done before we start saying that he can ride shotgun with Sean Couturier, when Couturier's out there head-to-head against Sidney Crosby and Steven Stamkos.
- AllInForFlyers

I don't think Downie has done anything spectacular out there on that line either way aside from that short spurt 3 months ago. That said, he played better on Saturday. But mostly, he's been a liability at best who's actually been a detriment to the Flyers. Again, if it's because he's hurt and not able to play well, both he and the Flyers would be better served if he sat.

i wish downie would have some fun every once in a while. the guy just seems miserable and pissed off 100% of the time during the games. i know he has to play with an edge but i just get depressed watching him sometimes.
- Crimsoninja

Agreed, Downie seems like a frustrated and pissed off player. I want the smart effective player that he was when he was first acquired. He did a nice job instigating in that scrum, until he lost control and used his head as a battering ram. Can't do that. Mix it up, get under their skin, and skate away.

I don't think Downie has done anything spectacular out there on that line either way aside from that short spurt 3 months ago. That said, he played better on Saturday. But mostly, he's been a liability at best who's actually been a detriment to the Flyers. Again, if it's because he's hurt and not able to play well, both he and the Flyers would be better served if he sat.
- jmatchett383

I'm certainly not saying Downie's the greatest player ever, but I do think he does some little things -- things that other players can do, should he be replaced -- that helps Couturier and Read.

Again, I am not saying that Downie can't be replaced. He can.

I'm just saying that what he does...it has to be replaced. It can't just be a defensive guy. It has to be a winger who can think offensive, move the puck a little, win some board battles, and know where to go in the defensive zone -- in essence, a third-line winger, two-way, with some grit.

Michael Raffl can probably do it, and yes, again, I would like to believe that Scott Laughton could shift to the wing and do it, if he knows that's what he needs to do to make the roster.

But, if those two don't, the Flyers do not currently have that player in their system. So we'd have to get one, and that's my point: If you don't have Downie, don't mess around and pretend that you don't need to replace him with someone who you KNOW is going to do what he does well.

i wish downie would have some fun every once in a while. the guy just seems miserable and pissed off 100% of the time during the games. i know he has to play with an edge but i just get depressed watching him sometimes.
- Crimsoninja

he looks like he is miserable

And Clarkson
- jmatchett383

I'm not into bashing Steve Downie -- are there some signs of decline in the player? Yes. I'm not blind. He was never a great skater, and it looks like he labors a bit after the knee injury, at times. And, again, with not being blind, it's clear that it is fair to question his ability to score goals.

But at the same time, how are the Flyers evaluating him, from what we don't know?

If Steve Downie is completely healthy and playing like he is, then fine. There will be better options out there in free agency.

But if he isn't completely healthy, and the Flyers know he's gutted it out through the head injuries...to me, there's a player there. He thinks the game well enough offensively to complement Sean Couturier and Matt Read -- and that absolutely matters. It means EVERYTHING.

It means EVERYTHING for Sean Couturier to develop properly. To not just play defense. But to create offense. Sean Couturier, along with Claude Giroux, are the future of this franchise. Everything we're trying to do doesn't happen if Couturier doesn't come close to fulfilling his potential.

I'm not saying that the only person who can play RW with Couturier is Steve Downie. I am saying that Downie: A) Helped salvage what looked like a lost Couturier in December, B) Took at least three nasty head shots this season and C) Thinks the game well enough to contribute, and D) Is still a competitive hockey player.

That doesn't mean he gets a pass for the things he doesn't do well. I'm not sugarcoating those things.

I'm just saying, if we don't bring him back, we'd better make damn sure we KNOW the guy who is replacing him is gonna get the job done -- because it's not just Downie. It's Sean Couturier's development we're talking about, and even the most ardent Downie detractor can't argue that Couturier isn't a better player when Read and Downie are going.
- AllInForFlyers

i like the cut of your jib.

I'm certainly not saying Downie's the greatest player ever, but I do think he does some little things -- things that other players can do, should he be replaced -- that helps Couturier and Read.

Again, I am not saying that Downie can't be replaced. He can.

I'm just saying that what he does...it has to be replaced. It can't just be a defensive guy. It has to be a winger who can think offensive, move the puck a little, win some board battles, and know where to go in the defensive zone -- in essence, a third-line winger, two-way, with some grit.

Michael Raffl can probably do it, and yes, again, I would like to believe that Scott Laughton could shift to the wing and do it, if he knows that's what he needs to do to make the roster.

But, if those two don't, the Flyers do not currently have that player in their system. So we'd have to get one, and that's my point: If you don't have Downie, don't mess around and pretend that you don't need to replace him with someone who you KNOW is going to do what he does well.
- AllInForFlyers

If I was the Flyers, I'd pencil Raffl in on the 3rd line next year. And I'd look for a fairly cheap veteran player for the 4th line.

Agreed. And when Raffl plays on the 3rd line with Couts and Read, they are consistently creating opportunities in the offensive zone.
- CACannon18

my mind recalls differently, i thought that line looked not so hot the game downie was out sick until they popped simmonds on there for a couple of shifts

I'm certainly not saying Downie's the greatest player ever, but I do think he does some little things -- things that other players can do, should he be replaced -- that helps Couturier and Read.

Again, I am not saying that Downie can't be replaced. He can.

I'm just saying that what he does...it has to be replaced. It can't just be a defensive guy. It has to be a winger who can think offensive, move the puck a little, win some board battles, and know where to go in the defensive zone -- in essence, a third-line winger, two-way, with some grit.

Michael Raffl can probably do it, and yes, again, I would like to believe that Scott Laughton could shift to the wing and do it, if he knows that's what he needs to do to make the roster, though.

But, if those two don't, the Flyers do not currently have that player in their system. So we'd have to get one, and that's my point: If you don't have Downie, don't mess around and pretend that you don't need to replace him with someone who you KNOW is going to do what he does well.
- AllInForFlyers

If he's willing to sign for the $1M or below that Laughton/Raffl would make in that role, I wouldn't mind keeping him at all for the reasons you stated. If not, I'd rather spend that extra $2M+ toward resigning Kimmo or grabbing another puck-mover.

I'm not into bashing Steve Downie -- are there some signs of decline in the player? Yes. I'm not blind. He was never a great skater, and it looks like he labors a bit after the knee injury, at times. And, again, with not being blind, it's clear that it is fair to question his ability to score goals.

But at the same time, how are the Flyers evaluating him, from what we don't know?

If Steve Downie is completely healthy and playing like he is, then fine. There will be better options out there in free agency.

But if he isn't completely healthy, and the Flyers know he's gutted it out through the head injuries...to me, there's a player there. He thinks the game well enough offensively to complement Sean Couturier and Matt Read -- and that absolutely matters. It means EVERYTHING.

It means EVERYTHING for Sean Couturier to develop properly. To not just play defense. But to create offense. Sean Couturier, along with Claude Giroux, are the future of this franchise. Everything we're trying to do doesn't happen if Couturier doesn't come close to fulfilling his potential.

I'm not saying that the only person who can play RW with Couturier is Steve Downie. I am saying that Downie: A) Helped salvage what looked like a lost Couturier in December, B) Took at least three nasty head shots this season and C) Thinks the game well enough to contribute, and D) Is still a competitive hockey player.

That doesn't mean he gets a pass for the things he doesn't do well. I'm not sugarcoating those things.

I'm just saying, if we don't bring him back, we'd better make damn sure we KNOW the guy who is replacing him is gonna get the job done -- because it's not just Downie. It's Sean Couturier's development we're talking about, and even the most ardent Downie detractor can't argue that Couturier isn't a better player when Read and Downie are going.
- AllInForFlyers

I am a fan, and would not mind him coming back, but realistically he is going to want a raise above the 2.5M/yr to come back and depending on what they do with the D (which is the big question at least to me) they may not be able to afford Downie.

I like your points about him battling and playing through injury.

I feel he is a legit NHL player and a known quality. Really having a tough stretch right now.

The only way Downie is helping Couturier's development right now is by giving him more time on the penalty kill. Right now Raffl would be a much better fit on the third line. The only problem is then you have two undisciplined idiots on the 4th line.

If he's willing to sign for the $1M or below that Laughton/Raffl would make in that role, I wouldn't mind keeping him at all for the reasons you stated. If not, I'd rather spend that extra $2M+ toward resigning Kimmo or grabbing another puck-mover.
- Tomahawk

Raffle is getting a raise. How much is the question.

Also I can't see any scenario where Downie accepts a significant pay cut to play here.

I'm certainly not saying Downie's the greatest player ever, but I do think he does some little things -- things that other players can do, should he be replaced -- that helps Couturier and Read.

Again, I am not saying that Downie can't be replaced. He can.

I'm just saying that what he does...it has to be replaced. It can't just be a defensive guy. It has to be a winger who can think offensive, move the puck a little, win some board battles, and know where to go in the defensive zone -- in essence, a third-line winger, two-way, with some grit.

Michael Raffl can probably do it, and yes, again, I would like to believe that Scott Laughton could shift to the wing and do it, if he knows that's what he needs to do to make the roster.

But, if those two don't, the Flyers do not currently have that player in their system. So we'd have to get one, and that's my point: If you don't have Downie, don't mess around and pretend that you don't need to replace him with someone who you KNOW is going to do what he does well.
- AllInForFlyers

I think Raffl has shown that he can do it. He's played with Read and Couturier and done fairly well in doing so. So I think they have his replacement already. And although he's yet to get a chance, Laughton PROJECTS (is that better) as a player who should be able to fill that role while producing more offensively.

I just have been unimpressed with Downie for the most part. To me, his propensity for horrible penalties does not get offset by his moderate defensive and nonexistent offensive capabilities, and I feel the team has been winning some games despite him.

The only way Downie is helping Couturier's development right now is by giving him more time on the penalty kill. Right now Raffl would be a much better fit on the third line. The only problem is then you have two undisciplined idiots on the 4th line.
- Feanor

my mind recalls differently, i thought that line looked not so hot the game downie was out sick until they popped simmonds on there for a couple of shifts
- -davies-

I didn't think Raffl played well at all this weekend but Downie headbutts some Penguano in the chest and we're spending three pages slamming him and calling him brainless?

Love these threads.

Raffle is getting a raise. How much is the question.

Also I can't see any scenario where Downie accepts a significant pay cut to play here.
- Marc D

I'm thinking 2 years for 1.8M for Raffl.

I am a fan, and would not mind him coming back, but realistically he is going to want a raise above the 2.5M/yr to come back and depending on what they do with the D (which is the big question at least to me) they may not be able to afford Downie.

I like your points about him battling and playing through injury.

I feel he is a legit NHL player and a known quality. Really having a tough stretch right now.
- Marc D

I don't want to bring back Downie. Whether the penalties are his fault or not, he's a liability on the ice. I feel the Flyers can either put Raffl, Laughton or an affordable free agent on that line.

Having Hartnell, Downie and Rinaldo is just too many undisciplined players.

If I was the Flyers, I'd pencil Raffl in on the 3rd line next year. And I'd look for a fairly cheap veteran player for the 4th line.
- MJL

Raffl has been very good all season, and I do believe he has a pretty decent offensive upside. Raffl can pretty much do anything effectively. I love a player like that.

I didn't think Raffl played well at all this weekend but Downie headbutts some Penguano in the chest and we're spending three pages slamming him and calling him brainless?

Love these threads.
- mayorofangrytown

Raffl was a big part of the Flyers perfect PK over the weekend. But I don't think he stood out in 5 on 5 play. And he had one bad turnover that led to a goal against. That happens occasionally. He's normally very sound with the puck.

I didn't think Raffl played well at all this weekend but Downie headbutts some Penguano in the chest and we're spending three pages slamming him and calling him brainless?

Love these threads.
- mayorofangrytown

I thought Raffl had one of his best weekends. He was a puck hawk who made many savvy plays. In a 4th line role there isnt much offense he can contribute, but he plays a very hard game. Doesnt quit, and is usually very sound defensively

I'm thinking 2 years for 1.8M for Raffl.
- MJL

Not sure what the comps are, but I'd be fine with a 2 year deal. He needs to be on this roster next year.

Raffle is getting a raise. How much is the question.

Also I can't see any scenario where Downie accepts a significant pay cut to play here.
- Marc D

Based on his (Downie's) play, I don't think teams will be lining up to give him a raise. I actually see a team giving him a 1-year reclamation deal a la Mason.

I'd like Raffl signed to a 2-year deal. He quietly turns in good games on a nightly basis.

I think Raffl has shown that he can do it. He's played with Read and Couturier and done fairly well in doing so. So I think they have his replacement already. And although he's yet to get a chance, Laughton PROJECTS (is that better) as a player who should be able to fill that role while producing more offensively.

I just have been unimpressed with Downie for the most part. To me, his propensity for horrible penalties does not get offset by his moderate defensive and nonexistent offensive capabilities, and I feel the team has been winning some games despite him.
- jmatchett383

Hey, that's a fair assessment -- I can see your argument. It's not far-fetched or anything.

Raffl's QO is only $735K, but I'm sure they will go higher than that.

I'm thinking 2 years for 1.8M for Raffl.
- MJL

900 per yr or 1.8 per?

I'm guessing 1.8 for two is what you mean.
What a bargain that would be.