2010.... with a guy named Pronger anchoring the D... and a gritty 2-way center Mike Richards playing #1 C.

Look at the teams that have won the stanley cup the last four years... all have had elite top dmen (chara, keith, seabrook, doughty) and all had gritty 2-way #1 Centers (Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar).

They don't need an elite playmaking center to get to the SCF. They do need elite D and 2-way forwards.
- moylander

I think you can win the cup through multiple ways. It certainly helps to have an elite #1 damn, but the Pens won with Gonchar. Teams like Vancouver, NJ, Ottawa have all gotten to the Cup without a true #1 defenseman.

I actually agree with you MJL that swapping players leaves one hole to fill another. Where we disagree is that I think players like Jake, Coots, B Schenn, Read, Simmonds can pick up the scoring loss if Giroux was gone (remember a few years ago when the doubters claimed the flyers would never recover the offense that Carts and Richie provided).... more importantly there is no way in hell that Luke, Kimmo, Mez, Grossmann, Gus, Coby can ever close the gap that Weber would bring to the Defense. We'd be better off (and more well rounded) with Weber than Giroux. I actually think I'd rather only give up Giroux for Weber than a trade involving a bunch of young prospects. While losing Giroux would hurt, losing Jake, Brayden, + would hurt this team even more.

I actually agree with you MJL that swapping players leaves one hole to fill another. Where we disagree is that I think players like Jake, Coots, B Schenn, Read, Simmonds can pick up the scoring loss if Giroux was gone (remember a few years ago when the doubters claimed the flyers would never recover the offense that Carts and Richie provided).... and more importantly that there is no way in hell that Luke, Kimmo, Mez, Grossmann, Gus, Coby can ever close the gap that Weber would bring to the Defense. We'd be better off (and more well rounded) with Weber than Giroux. I actually think I'd rather only give up Giroux for Weber than a trade involving a bunch of young prospects. While losing Giroux would hurt, losing Jake, Brayden, + would hurt this team even more.
- moylander

Better off with Giroux or Weber? Grass is always greener... until you decide to start watering what you got.

I actually agree with you MJL that swapping players leaves one hole to fill another. Where we disagree is that I think players like Jake, Coots, B Schenn, Read, Simmonds can pick up the scoring loss if Giroux was gone (remember a few years ago when the doubters claimed the flyers would never recover the offense that Carts and Richie provided).... more importantly there is no way in hell that Luke, Kimmo, Mez, Grossmann, Gus, Coby can ever close the gap that Weber would bring to the Defense. We'd be better off (and more well rounded) with Weber than Giroux. I actually think I'd rather only give up Giroux for Weber than a trade involving a bunch of young prospects. While losing Giroux would hurt, losing Jake, Brayden, + would hurt this team even more.
- moylander

You make a lot of good points here. Just think if JVR wasn't sold for pennies on the dollar, his offense would help offset trading Giroux.

Better off with Giroux or Weber? Grass is always greener... until you decide to start watering what you got.
- Tomahawk

How many forward only teams ever get to the SC? Right now and for the forseeable future this team is a bunch of forwards... and that is it. Winning teams build from the back end out. Its not about the grass is greener - its about putting the right pieces in place to win a cup now and in the future. I hope they keep developing Morin, Hagg, Ghost, etc - its not like I'm suggesting trading the entire team with the cupboard too to get Weber.

You make a lot of good points here. Just think if JVR wasn't sold for pennies on the dollar, his offense would help offset trading Giroux.
- PLindbergh31

Or you could use JVR+ instead of Giroux as trade bait. But crying, milk, and so on.

How has Nashville been doing building a Stanley Cup team around Weber?
- MJL

About as well as the Flyers building one around Giroux.

How many forward only teams ever get to the SC? Right now and for the forseeable future this team is a bunch of forwards... and that is it. Winning teams build from the back end out. Its not about the grass is greener - its about putting the right pieces in place to win a cup now and in the future. I hope they keep developing Morin, Hagg, Ghost, etc - its not like I'm suggesting trading the entire team with the cupboard too to get Weber.
- moylander

The problem with the Flyers has always been their inability to construct a complete team, not their ability to have the best players at any given position. Today, it's the defense, but not too long ago, it was the goaltending, and before that, it was the ability to keep up with the pace of the 'new NHL'.

Did they really have to trade Carter/Richards, and dole out $51M to improve the goaltending? A much more modest price of Leighton and a 3rd seems to have done the trick instead.

Same thing on defense... you can go full panic and try to find the Cadillac of solutions for the defense... or you could take a wait and see approach and poach an underrated/under-the-radar option for pennies on the dollar, and not disrupt the rest of the team. I'm a big fan of the latter.

Or you could use JVR+ instead of Giroux as trade bait. But crying, milk, and so on.
- BulliesPhan87

It's not really crying or complaining.... As it stands right now the Flyers traded a first line power forward for a third pairing defenseman. It's trades like this that set a franchise back, and are tough to recover from.

How many forward only teams ever get to the SC? Right now and for the forseeable future this team is a bunch of forwards... and that is it. Winning teams build from the back end out. Its not about the grass is greener - its about putting the right pieces in place to win a cup now and in the future. I hope they keep developing Morin, Hagg, Ghost, etc - its not like I'm suggesting trading the entire team with the cupboard too to get Weber.
- moylander

Thats not true. Winning teams are balanced. A #1 center is equally as important as a #1 dman. It's hard for Flyers fans to see this because we've been blessed with having great depth at center and little depth on defense for such a long time.

The important question to ask regarding whether Weber is worth Giroux, is which player the Flyers are more built to build around.

The problem with the Flyers has always been their inability to construct a complete team, not their ability to have the best players at any given position. Today, it's the defense, but not too long ago, it was the goaltending, and before that, it was the ability to keep up with the pace of the 'new NHL'.

Did they really have to trade Carter/Richards, and dole out $51M to improve the goaltending? A much more modest price of Leighton and a 3rd seems to have done the trick instead.

Same thing on defense... you can go full panic and try to find the Cadillac of solutions for the defense... or you could take a wait and see approach and poach an underrated/under-the-radar option for pennies on the dollar, and not disrupt the rest of the team. I'm a big fan of the latter.
- Tomahawk

I think the key word is patience. Even if they acquire a #1 dman, the Flyers will not compete for a Cup because of the sheer assets it will take to acquire that player. Simply acquiring a #1 dman would be a move for the future.

This isn't like the Pronger situation where the Flyers were 1 player away from reaching the Cup because they had tremendous depth at forward. This team has very little depth outside of this current roster.

About as well as the Flyers building one around Giroux.
- MBFlyerfan

Not sure that's the case. The Predators, since Shea Weber joined the team, have missed the playoffs twice and won two first round playoffs series. The Flyers, since Giroux has joined the team, have missed the playoffs once, won five playoffs series, and have made one Stanley Cup Finals appearance.

Neither has exactly cracked the code, but I'd say the Flyers have done better than "about as well", if only by a degree or two.

2010.... with a guy named Pronger anchoring the D... and a gritty 2-way center Mike Richards playing #1 C.

Look at the teams that have won the stanley cup the last four years... all have had elite top dmen (chara, keith, seabrook, doughty) and all had gritty 2-way #1 Centers (Toews, Bergeron, Kopitar).

They don't need an elite playmaking center to get to the SCF. They do need elite D and 2-way forwards.
- moylander

Toews and Kopitar are elite players.

It's not really crying or complaining.... As it stands right now the Flyers traded a first line power forward for a third pairing defenseman. It's trades like this that set a franchise back, and are tough to recover from.
- PLindbergh31

Oh, ok.

I actually agree with you MJL that swapping players leaves one hole to fill another. Where we disagree is that I think players like Jake, Coots, B Schenn, Read, Simmonds can pick up the scoring loss if Giroux was gone (remember a few years ago when the doubters claimed the flyers would never recover the offense that Carts and Richie provided).... more importantly there is no way in hell that Luke, Kimmo, Mez, Grossmann, Gus, Coby can ever close the gap that Weber would bring to the Defense. We'd be better off (and more well rounded) with Weber than Giroux. I actually think I'd rather only give up Giroux for Weber than a trade involving a bunch of young prospects. While losing Giroux would hurt, losing Jake, Brayden, + would hurt this team even more.
- moylander

It's impossible for those players to make up the scoring loss with Giroux gone. It's a domino effect. I seem to remember most agreeing with the Richards and Carter trades. And in those trades the Flyers got 4 players for 2, not counting the other picks. I make the Weber deal for the right price. And Giroux and Couturier would not be involved.

It's impossible for those players to make up the scoring loss with Giroux gone. It's a domino effect. I seem to remember most agreeing with the Richards and Carter trades. And in those trades the Flyers got 4 players for 2, not counting the other picks. I make the Weber deal for the right price. And Giroux and Couturier would not be involved.
- MJL

So you wouldn't trade Couturier, Morin 2014 1st for Weber?

About as well as the Flyers building one around Giroux.
- MBFlyerfan

The Flyers took steps back when they traded Richards and Carter, and we knew that it would take development time in doing so. Nashville has had Weber for how long now? And don't appear close to getting there. I think the Flyers are in a better spot.

It's not really crying or complaining.... As it stands right now the Flyers traded a first line power forward for a third pairing defenseman. It's trades like this that set a franchise back, and are tough to recover from.
- PLindbergh31

Trades like that don't set a franchise back, nor is it tough to recover from. JVR is not that good of a player. Now trading Giroux however would fit that premise a lot better.

The Flyers took steps back when they traded Richards and Carter, and we knew that it would take development time in doing so. Nashville has had Weber for how long now? And don't appear close to getting there. I think the Flyers are in a better spot.
- MJL

That has more to do with money and market. Preds have a hard time getting big time free agents because they're a small hockey market and a cap floor team. I don't think their inability to compete is because Giroux is a better and more important player than weber.

So you wouldn't trade Couturier, Morin 2014 1st for Weber?
- PhillySportsGuy

Probably not. But it's understandable if someone would. It's a good deal. But I jsut want to keep Couturier and would rather include someone else.

I don't expect any of those promising Centers to approach the level of Giroux offensively, and as a catalyst. Giroux is a non starter for me.
- MJL

I think Giroux is a non started in 99% of trades... However, if it was Weber for Giroux straight up. I'd do it. Giroux is an all around great/excellent player, similar could be said about Weber. But, if you take emotion out of the consideration and strictly look at team needs... There is a huge gap in Defense, and we're heavy with Offense. We could absorb a hit on offensive with one guy, and become a much better team. Giroux for Weber, may actually be a better trade option than Weber for 2 top six roster guys, prospect and a #1 pick. Historically, the Flyers have generally faired well in the UFA pool. A #1 UFA center looking for a team, would look twice at the Flyers with good goaltending, good defence and plenty of offensive supporting cast.

I don't believe Weber will be traded any time soon. He maybe in the future, when the quality of their younger players get sorted out and their salaries sky-rocket. That's the only time NAS would trade Weber... When and if its a choice between Weber and signing both Josi and Jones (or others).

That has more to do with money and market. Preds have a hard time getting big time free agents because they're a small hockey market and a cap floor team. I don't think their inability to compete is because Giroux is a better and more important player than weber.
- PhillySportsGuy

There's lots of factors involved in why Nashville hasn't done better. But the real point is that it takes more then just a franchise defenseman, or a franchise forward for that matter.

I think Giroux is a non started in 99% of trades... However, if it was Weber for Giroux straight up. I'd do it. Giroux is an all around great/excellent player, similar could be said about Weber. But, if you take emotion out of the consideration and strictly look at team needs... There is a huge gap in Defense, and we're heavy with Offense. We could absorb a hit on offensive with one guy, and become a much better team. Giroux for Weber, may actually be a better trade option than Weber for 2 top six roster guys, prospect and a #1 pick. Historically, the Flyers have generally faired well in the UFA pool. A #1 UFA center looking for a team, would look twice at the Flyers with good goaltending, good defence and plenty of offensive supporting cast.

I don't believe Weber will be traded any time soon. He maybe in the future, when the quality of their younger players get sorted out and their salaries sky-rocket. That's the only time NAS would trade Weber... When and if its a choice between Weber and signing both Josi and Jones (or others).
- leon neon

That's where we differ. I disagree that they can absorb the loss of Giroux in adding Weber. In this case, quantity does not offset quality offensively. It would have a huge effect on this team offensively.

The Flyers took steps back when they traded Richards and Carter, and we knew that it would take development time in doing so. Nashville has had Weber for how long now? And don't appear close to getting there. I think the Flyers are in a better spot.
- MJL

They are, and they would still have a better forward corps than Nashville even IF they traded Giroux for Weber.

There's lots of factors involved in why Nashville hasn't done better. But the real point is that it takes more then just a franchise defenseman, or a franchise forward for that matter.
- MJL

Was anyone debating that?