I don't agree. Again, with going with youth and building a core. Trading JVR for L. Schenn, a young defenseman, isn't going against the plan. And again, you are discounting the Flyers need for young defenseman. As if there is some rule against bringing in a quality young defenseman because you have two older defenseman with similar games. They've kept the young core intact from the Richards and Carter trades intact for how many Seasons now? And have shown an unwillingness to trade Schenn and or Couturier. I think there's a lot more consistency then is being given credit for.
- MJL

I'm not discounting the Flyers need for young defensemen at all. What you're ignoring or not acknowledging is that the Flyers traded a guy who less than a year before was signed to a six year contract extension is a radical shift in your plans for a particular player.

You don't sign a guy for 6 years if he doesn't play a large role in your future plans. Trading him away a year later is not a minor change, it's a huge departure from your plans.

Doing it three times in the space of 18 months is a massive revolution in the plan that you've committed a lot of money and effort to building. Signing a goalie to a 9 year deal and then buying him out 2 years later, after trading the good young goalie you had on hand is bad planning

I don't have an issue going out and signing the top free agent goaltender available, who was a recent Vezina finalist. I don't think there was haste involved or a lack of homework. Nature of the beast with Free Agents. I blame the player who didn't play to the level of the contract he was given. And I think it's smart to admit a mistake and move on without Cap penalty, if you think it's not going to work out. If you have the opportunity.
- MJL

It would have been a lot smarter to be patient and develop the young kid that came over to North America and started 56 games as a rookie, despite never having played on a smaller rink, rather than making the rash decision because the 80 year old owner was embarrassed because his coach panicked.

I'm not discounting the Flyers need for young defensemen at all. What you're ignoring or not acknowledging is that the Flyers traded a guy who less than a year before was signed to a six year contract extension is a radical shift in your plans for a particular player.

You don't sign a guy for 6 years if he doesn't play a large role in your future plans. Trading him away a year later is not a minor change, it's a huge departure from your plans.

Doing it three times in the space of 18 months is a massive revolution in the plan that you've committed a lot of money and effort to building. Signing a goalie to a 9 year deal and then buying him out 2 years later, after trading the good young goalie you had on hand is bad planning
- Jsaquella

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying I'm perfectly fine with trading youth for youth if you think it's the right deal to make. Regardless of when he was signed. As if signing a player to a long term deal then precludes the GM for trading the player. If a great deal comes up in the near future for Giroux, if the GM thinks it makes the team better, I want him to make it. I could care less that they just re-signed Giroux. What was Holmgren supposed to do, not re-sign JVR. And re-signing the player adds to his trade value. Trading one player is not a huge departure. Now trading Richards and Carter on the same day was, a big change. Nobody has ever said it wasn't. But since then, the Flyers have stayed the course with the nucleus it received in those deals. And the deals were lauded by many on here. And it was known that those deals were going to be a step back for the team, hopefully to make it better for the future. But I guess 59 games changes things.

It would have been a lot smarter to be patient and develop the young kid that came over to North America and started 56 games as a rookie, despite never having played on a smaller rink, rather than making the rash decision because the 80 year old owner was embarrassed because his coach panicked.
- Jsaquella

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Even Bill Meltzer correctly justified the trade. Real easy after the fact to criticize it. As if most knew that the Flyers were trading a future Vezina winner, and that the Free Agent goalie was going to flop. I think for now on when a deal or signing is made. I'm going to wait a couple of years to give an opinion on it. I'll have a much better chance of being right about it. I have no problems with what the Flyers did there. I'm not going to kill them for it with hindsight. I think far too much is made of Snider's involvement in that situation. And I also think Holmgren did a great job in acquiring Mason. I think he has a good chance to be a very good Goalie for this team going froward.

The Sixers beat the Heat tonight. Their rookie point guard went for 22 pts, 12 assists, 9 steals. Several steals of Lebron late in the game. That was fun.

Screwing up the tanking
- Just5

They won't win many games, but those back to back in the NBA are real tough. first 3 picks are all real good with #1, Wiggins being a total stud.

I'm not ignoring anything. I'm saying I'm perfectly fine with trading youth for youth if you think it's the right deal to make. Regardless of when he was signed. As if signing a player to a long term deal then precludes the GM for trading the player. If a great deal comes up in the near future for Giroux, if the GM thinks it makes the team better, I want him to make it. I could care less that they just re-signed Giroux. What was Holmgren supposed to do, not re-sign JVR. And re-signing the player adds to his trade value. Trading one player is not a huge departure. Now trading Richards and Carter on the same day was, a big change. Nobody has ever said it wasn't. But since then, the Flyers have stayed the course with the nucleus it received in those deals. And the deals were lauded by many on here. And it was known that those deals were going to be a step back for the team, hopefully to make it better for the future. But I guess 59 games changes things.
- MJL

Well, if you want to discuss whether the team made the right trade, then we can revisit the need for Schenn.

Yes, the Flyers had a need for a young defensemen. But they had 3 players with very similar skill sets on the roster...and they were all in their mid-20's. It wasn't like they had 3 30 year old guys with the same skill set.

So yes, there's serious questions I have about just how "right" the deal was.

The larger issue is, that the Flyers went from being 2 wins from the Stanley Cup to being a lottery team in 3 years. The young core of the team that went to the Final has largely been gutted, as the Flyers have just 4 active players from that team on the roster.

That is why people question the team and it's plan. It's been 3 years running, getting progressively worse, despite the team adding big names and maintaining a high payroll.

It would have been a lot smarter to be patient and develop the young kid that came over to North America and started 56 games as a rookie, despite never having played on a smaller rink, rather than making the rash decision because the 80 year old owner was embarrassed because his coach panicked.
- Jsaquella

They drastically over-correct each and every time...


Miss the playoffs? Go out and sign the biggest name UFA available (Briere), even though the UFA class is horrible,

1st-round exit at the hands of Sid and Geno? Go out and get Chris Pronger... psshh 35+... details, details,

Fall short against the Hawks due to lack of defensive depth? Nice knowin' ya Gags, let's pay Meszaros 1st-pair $ to play 3rd-pair minutes,

Goaltending a joke in the Playoffs? Go out and get Bryzgalov, even though he's a well-known mental flake and destroys the budget structure,

Boston and New Jersey big forwards giving them fits? Solution: load up on even-bigger defensemen.

Miss the playoffs again? Go out and sign the biggest name UFAs available... hmmm, wait... that sounds familiar.



The only plan is to stick a finger in the last hole in the dam...

Well, if you want to discuss whether the team made the right trade, then we can revisit the need for Schenn.

Yes, the Flyers had a need for a young defensemen. But they had 3 players with very similar skill sets on the roster...and they were all in their mid-20's. It wasn't like they had 3 30 year old guys with the same skill set.

So yes, there's serious questions I have about just how "right" the deal was.

The larger issue is, that the Flyers went from being 2 wins from the Stanley Cup to being a lottery team in 3 years. The young core of the team that went to the Final has largely been gutted, as the Flyers have just 4 active players from that team on the roster.

That is why people question the team and it's plan. It's been 3 years running, getting progressively worse, despite the team adding big names and maintaining a high payroll.
- Jsaquella

You keeping stating similar skill sets as a way to say that L. Schenn wasn't a need. As I stated previously, I don't agree. They had a definite need for young defenseman in the Organization, regardless of skill set. The Flyers traded their top 2 players, and lost a franchise defenseman to a career ending injury. Again, we knew that the Flyers were taking a step back in making those deals. And so did Holmgren. What's changed? Why are the moves now being questioned? I'll tell you why, the fans have lost patience. After most of them have complained about the Flyers lack of patience. I think were seeing the struggles of a developing team more then we're seeing a team that is going backwards.

This has been discussed ad nauseum. Even Bill Meltzer correctly justified the trade. Real easy after the fact to criticize it. As if most knew that the Flyers were trading a future Vezina winner, and that the Free Agent goalie was going to flop. I think for now on when a deal or signing is made. I'm going to wait a couple of years to give an opinion on it. I'll have a much better chance of being right about it. I have no problems with what the Flyers did there. I'm not going to kill them for it with hindsight. I think far too much is made of Snider's involvement in that situation. And I also think Holmgren did a great job in acquiring Mason. I think he has a good chance to be a very good Goalie for this team going froward.
- MJL

Hell, i was onboard with the Bryzgalov move. In hindsight it was a massive mistake. Should I be happy that they have deep enough pockets to buy their way out of that massive mistake? No, not really.

And yes, it was a good move in adding Mason. I'm not saying that every move Holmgren has made has been bad.

The key, to me, is to look back at your mistakes and learn from them. Not sure the Flyers do that enough.

They drastically over-correct each and every time...


Miss the playoffs? Go out and sign the biggest name UFA available (Briere), even though the UFA class is horrible,

1st-round exit at the hands of Sid and Geno? Go out and get Chris Pronger... psshh 35+... details, details,

Fall short against the Hawks due to lack of defensive depth? Nice knowin' ya Gags, let's pay Meszaros 1st-pair $ to play 3rd-pair minutes,

Goaltending a joke in the Playoffs? Go out and get Bryzgalov, even though he's a well-known mental flake and destroys the budget structure,

Boston and New Jersey big forwards giving them fits? Solution: load up on even-bigger defensemen.

Miss the playoffs again? Go out and sign the biggest name UFAs available... hmmm, wait... that sounds familiar.



The only plan is to stick a finger in the last hole in the dam...
- Tomahawk

Adding Briere, Timonen, and Pronger took this team from last overall to the Cup Finals. Hardly sticking a finger in the last hole in the dam. Fans complained constantly about goaltending. Blamed Leighton for losing the Cup. So the Flyers went out and signed the top free agent goaltender to try and solidify the position. Signing Streit and Lecavalier were good moves in my opinion. I think there's a lot of fans seriously overreacting to bumps in the road. I hope Holmgren has more fortitude then a lot of the fans.

Hell, i was onboard with the Bryzgalov move. In hindsight it was a massive mistake. Should I be happy that they have deep enough pockets to buy their way out of that massive mistake? No, not really.

And yes, it was a good move in adding Mason. I'm not saying that every move Holmgren has made has been bad.

The key, to me, is to look back at your mistakes and learn from them. Not sure the Flyers do that enough.
- Jsaquella

I'm extremely happy that they were able to use the CBO to get out of a mistake. Don't know why any fan wouldn't be.

And I'm not saying that Holmgren hasn't made any mistakes. Not firing Laviolette after last season and bringing him back was a big mistake. It may cost the Flyers a Season.

They drastically over-correct each and every time...


Miss the playoffs? Go out and sign the biggest name UFA available (Briere), even though the UFA class is horrible,

1st-round exit at the hands of Sid and Geno? Go out and get Chris Pronger... psshh 35+... details, details,

Fall short against the Hawks due to lack of defensive depth? Nice knowin' ya Gags, let's pay Meszaros 1st-pair $ to play 3rd-pair minutes,

Goaltending a joke in the Playoffs? Go out and get Bryzgalov, even though he's a well-known mental flake and destroys the budget structure,

Boston and New Jersey big forwards giving them fits? Solution: load up on even-bigger defensemen.

Miss the playoffs again? Go out and sign the biggest name UFAs available... hmmm, wait... that sounds familiar.



The only plan is to stick a finger in the last hole in the dam...
- Tomahawk

Shelley somehow scores two goals against you. Probably the only two goals of the year for him? Sign that man to not one, not two, but three years at 1.1!!! Ah Ah Ahhhhh!!!

Shelley somehow scores two goals against you. Probably the only two goals of the year for him? Sign that man to not one, not two, but three years at 1.1!!! Ah Ah Ahhhhh!!!
- Just5

Man did that deal set the franchise back! Who knows how many Cups the Flyers would've won if they hadn't signed Shelley.

You keeping stating similar skill sets as a way to say that L. Schenn wasn't a need. As I stated previously, I don't agree. They had a definite need for young defenseman in the Organization, regardless of skill set. The Flyers traded their top 2 players, and lost a franchise defenseman to a career ending injury. Again, we knew that the Flyers were taking a step back in making those deals. And so did Holmgren. What's changed? Why are the moves now being questioned? I'll tell you why, the fans have lost patience. After most of them have complained about the Flyers lack of patience. I think were seeing the struggles of a developing team more then we're seeing a team that is going backwards.
- MJL

The fans have mainly lost patience in the man making the decisions, because there's no consistency. They overreact to every setback and hurl money at every perceived area of weakness. It's short sighted. Outside of Pronger and Timonen, the core of that 2010 SCF team was young. They ended up keeping the oldest guys from the core and counted on them to sustain their level of play.

To touch on the Schenn trade one last time.

-Yes, they needed some young defensemen. But they had 3 fairly young defensemen, between 25-27 on the roster that had similar skill sets to the 23 year old defenseman they were acquiring. They also had another 27 year old defenseman with a needed skill set that was a pending UFA.

The three guys with similar skill sets were all under contract for 2-4 years each. The immediate future was fine with those three, they needed another guy like the 27 year old pending free agent...the one who's skill set is usually more expensive to sign or trade for.

Even if they had added Suter or Weber, they still had 4 defensemen on the roster who had limited mobility, subpar puck skills or both. The type of defenseman they were bringing in should have been just as important as his age.

Man did that deal set the franchise back! Who knows how many Cups the Flyers would've won if they hadn't signed Shelley.
- MJL

Im just glad they locked him up when they had the opportunity to

The fans have mainly lost patience in the man making the decisions, because there's no consistency. They overreact to every setback and hurl money at every perceived area of weakness. It's short sighted. Outside of Pronger and Timonen, the core of that 2010 SCF team was young. They ended up keeping the oldest guys from the core and counted on them to sustain their level of play.

To touch on the Schenn trade one last time.

-Yes, they needed some young defensemen. But they had 3 fairly young defensemen, between 25-27 on the roster that had similar skill sets to the 23 year old defenseman they were acquiring. They also had another 27 year old defenseman with a needed skill set that was a pending UFA.

The three guys with similar skill sets were all under contract for 2-4 years each. The immediate future was fine with those three, they needed another guy like the 27 year old pending free agent...the one who's skill set is usually more expensive to sign or trade for.

Even if they had added Suter or Weber, they still had 4 defensemen on the roster who had limited mobility, subpar puck skills or both. The type of defenseman they were bringing in should have been just as important as his age.
- Jsaquella

I think the only overreactions are from the fans at this point.

That Schenn has a similar skill set to other defenseman on the team is irrelvant as far as I'm concerned. If you feel he can be a top defenseman in this League, and you have a need for young defenseman in the Organization, then it's a good deal. The difference between 23 and 27 is huge in the NHL, and a lot happens in 2-4 years with a team and with players. I don't think the similar skill set issue is a reason to criticize the trade. Just my opinion, and we obviously disagree on that.

Man did that deal set the franchise back! Who knows how many Cups the Flyers would've won if they hadn't signed Shelley.
- MJL

It's yet another symptom of their knee jerk reactionary management style.

Steve Eminger played well against them in the 2008 playoffs. They traded a 1st round pick that became John Carlson-a very good young defenseman-to acquire him.

They soured on Eminger after 12 games.

It's great that they are willing to admit a mistake and quickly move to correct it. But it'd be far better to avoid making the mistake in the first place.

Man did that deal set the franchise back! Who knows how many Cups the Flyers would've won if they hadn't signed Shelley.
- MJL

Yeah, they really didn't need the cap-space that year... everybody knows they wouldn't have been any better off investing more money in goaltending (wee, re-up Leighton on the cheap!) or bringing in a more viable top-six forward (that Zherdev was money in the bank!).... yeah, thank god the team didn't suffer for those $-driven decisions... and thank god we had Jody Shelley there to play a capable, regular shift.

It's yet another symptom of their knee jerk reactionary management style.

Steve Eminger played well against them in the 2008 playoffs. They traded a 1st round pick that became John Carlson-a very good young defenseman-to acquire him.

They soured on Eminger after 12 games.

It's great that they are willing to admit a mistake and quickly move to correct it. But it'd be far better to avoid making the mistake in the first place.
- Jsaquella

I don't agree in the belief that they signed Shelly based on one game or that it was knee jerk in any way. I think they knew of Shelley's character and his leadership, and felt he was a good fit in the enforcer role. To believe that is to state that the Flyers signed Shelley in part for his goal scoring ability, which is ludicrous. The guy had scored 16 goals in 8 NHL Seasons to that point.
I also don't think that they traded for Eminger just based on one playoff series. The trade was an obvious mistake, and I'm still not sure what they saw in him to deem him worthy of a first round pick.

As far as avoiding a mistake, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a GM not to make any mistakes in player moves.

Yeah, they really didn't need the cap-space that year... everybody knows they wouldn't have been any better off investing more money in goaltending (wee, re-up Leighton on the cheap!) or bringing in a more viable top-six forward (that Zherdev was money in the bank!).... yeah, thank god the team didn't suffer for those $-driven decisions... and thank god we had Jody Shelley there to play a capable, regular shift.
- Tomahawk

Signing Shelley did not stop the Flyers from making a single move that they wanted to make, in the 3 years that he was here. And the Flyers could've waived him and assigned him to the minors, and removed him from the Cap at any time they wanted to.

I think the only overreactions are from the fans at this point.

That Schenn has a similar skill set to other defenseman on the team is irrelvant as far as I'm concerned. If you feel he can be a top defenseman in this League, and you have a need for young defenseman in the Organization, then it's a good deal. The difference between 23 and 27 is huge in the NHL, and a lot happens in 2-4 years with a team and with players. I don't think the similar skill set issue is a reason to criticize the trade. Just my opinion, and we obviously disagree on that.
- MJL

It's not irrelevant, because the biggest weakness of the team since the trade was made has been a lack of mobility and puck skills on the blue line. The trade absolutely and utterly failed to address that. So, while it's great that they got a young defenseman, they failed to fill the far more pressing need.

It's not irrelevant, because the biggest weakness of the team since the trade was made has been a lack of mobility and puck skills on the blue line. The trade absolutely and utterly failed to address that. So, while it's great that they got a young defenseman, they failed to fill the far more pressing need.
- Jsaquella

The trade wasn't made to address that. At the time of the trade, Carle was still Flyers property. Free Agency and the whole Weber situation hadn't played out. And Timonen was still a solid puck mover at the time. Goes towards how things quickly change as I pointed out earlier.

Hell, i was onboard with the Bryzgalov move. In hindsight it was a massive mistake. Should I be happy that they have deep enough pockets to buy their way out of that massive mistake? No, not really.

And yes, it was a good move in adding Mason. I'm not saying that every move Holmgren has made has been bad.

The key, to me, is to look back at your mistakes and learn from them. Not sure the Flyers do that enough.
- Jsaquella

Believe it or not, I was in favor of trading Richards and Carter, but not signing Bryzgalov to that term.

People might forget, but Richards was miserable here that last season. He was tired of the media, tired of Peter Laviolette, probably tired of Dry Island. And if you move Richards -- which I felt they had to do -- then yeah, you had to move Carter. The mistake was signing Bryzgalov to a contract term that was never going to work here, or anywhere else. Nine years for a goaltender...that wasn't going to work. It was never going to work.

MJL and JSaq, you are both right, in any number of ways. We need to be patient...because we don't have another choice. We don't have the assets to address our needs, because if we move anybody,all we do is open a hole somewhere else.

That is on Paul Holmgren -- who I like has a GM, but has also failed to address this team's needs for more skill and more mobility on the back end, which even with Mark Streit, was still obviously a team need. I've written before how we're missing about 90 points of production from the team that beat the Pens in the playoffs two years ago. Not replacing that is on Paul Holmgren.

Can JVR for Schenn work? Sure. If Schenn plays like last year, it's a nonissue. If Couturier turns into Michal Handzus, I won't complain. Brayden Schenn...I wish he was doing more, at his age, but we shouldn't move him until after the season, if he simply doesn't look like he can get the job done.That opens up room for Scott Laughton or Nick Cousins or someone else on the roster.

As much as I can see both sides and as much as I effing hate losing like this, we're married to this crap for this season. Either these young players show they are what they need them to be, or we need to move on -- Schenn's an 2009 pick. He'll have had enough time to show what he is.

I don't agree in the belief that they signed Shelly based on one game or that it was knee jerk in any way. I think they knew of Shelley's character and his leadership, and felt he was a good fit in the enforcer role. To believe that is to state that the Flyers signed Shelley in part for his goal scoring ability, which is ludicrous. The guy had scored 16 goals in 8 NHL Seasons to that point.
I also don't think that they traded for Eminger just based on one playoff series. The trade was an obvious mistake, and I'm still not sure what they saw in him to deem him worthy of a first round pick.

As far as avoiding a mistake, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a GM not to make any mistakes in player moves.
- MJL

I'm not expecting a GM to avoid all mistakes...I do expect the GM to avoid repeating similar mistakes time and time again. Rash decisions in handing out big money, long term contracts, making impatient trades that don't fill a specific need or cause the team to overpay when patience shows they could have filled the need more cheaply and counting heavily on players to perform at a high level after their 35th birthday have happened time and again to this team.

Believe it or not, I was in favor of trading Richards and Carter, but not signing Bryzgalov to that term.

People might forget, but Richards was miserable here that last season. He was tired of the media, tired of Peter Laviolette, probably tired of Dry Island. And if you move Richards -- which I felt they had to do -- then yeah, you had to move Carter. The mistake was signing Bryzgalov to a contract term that was never going to work here, or anywhere else. Nine years for a goaltender...that wasn't going to work. It was never going to work.

MJL and JSaq, you are both right, in any number of ways. We need to be patient...because we don't have another choice. We don't have the assets to address our needs, because if we move anybody,all we do is open a hole somewhere else.

That is on Paul Holmgren -- who I like has a GM, but has also failed to address this team's needs for more skill and more mobility on the back end, which even with Mark Streit, was still obviously a team need. I've written before how we're missing about 90 points of production from the team that beat the Pens in the playoffs two years ago. Not replacing that is on Paul Holmgren.

Can JVR for Schenn work? Sure. If Schenn plays like last year, it's a nonissue. If Couturier turns into Michal Handzus, I won't complain. Brayden Schenn...I wish he was doing more, at his age, but we shouldn't move him until after the season, if he simply doesn't look like he can get the job done.That opens up room for Scott Laughton or Nick Cousins or someone else on the roster.

As much as I can see both sides and as much as I effing hate losing like this, we're married to this crap for this season. Either these young players show they are what they need them to be, or we need to move on -- Schenn's an 2009 pick. He'll have had enough time to show what he is.
- AllInForFlyers

I think you make a lot of good points. But I just disagree on the Bryzgalov contract never having a chance to work. If he had played to the Vezina level he had played at in the past, the contract was fine. The results they got, is what made it a bad deal. And when looking at B Schenn, I think you have to look at games played, not when he was drafted. He's played 121 NHL games to this point. Which is less then two full Seasons worth of games.