Holmgren also publicly stated that he wasn't going to trade Richards and Carter. He may have thought that at the time that he could sign Carle, but things obviously change as time goes on. I don't see the JVR trade and the Streit signing linked to each other. I like the JVR trade. Still think it was a good deal. The Season is only 11 games old. I think it's premature to say that the end result is the 29th best team in a 30 team League. And a lot of the moves made were for the future. That entails more then just this Season.
- MJL

Nobody's said that the JvR trade & the Streit signing are linked.

I merely stated that had the Flyers not traded JvR for a less mobile defenseman, with average puck skills, which they had 3 of at the time of the trade, they would have had more options to trade for a better or younger defenseman who could be a good puck mover and bring mobility, rather than having to sign Streit to an over 35 deal.

And right now, the Flyers are the 29th team in the NHL. They have finished progressively worse in each season since 2010.

Holmgren also publicly stated that he wasn't going to trade Richards and Carter. He may have thought that at the time that he could sign Carle, but things obviously change as time goes on. I don't see the JVR trade and the Streit signing linked to each other. I like the JVR trade. Still think it was a good deal. The Season is only 11 games old. I think it's premature to say that the end result is the 29th best team in a 30 team League. And a lot of the moves made were for the future. That entails more then just this Season.
- MJL

Its not premature. 48 games last year says its not premature, well if you discount the 10 games the AHLers played to skew the record

Its not premature. 48 games last year says its not premature, well if you discount the 10 games the AHLers played to skew the record
- Just5

Well if the 48 games count last year, then let's just end this debacle of the 13/14 NHL Season and just give the Cup to the Hawks already! What are you talking about? There's still 70 games to play this Season. And it is premature to say the END RESULT is that they're 29th in a 30 team League.

Nobody's said that the JvR trade & the Streit signing are linked.

I merely stated that had the Flyers not traded JvR for a less mobile defenseman, with average puck skills, which they had 3 of at the time of the trade, they would have had more options to trade for a better or younger defenseman who could be a good puck mover and bring mobility, rather than having to sign Streit to an over 35 deal.

And right now, the Flyers are the 29th team in the NHL. They have finished progressively worse in each season since 2010.
- Jsaquella

I think that you need defenseman like Luke Schenn just as much as you need mobile puck movers. I think one thing that's being overlooked, is that JVR wasn't going to get that player in a trade. Right now does not add up to an end result. There are still 70 games to play.

Not at all. But they should hedge their bets and maybe be a little more prudent.

Speculation or not, Holmgren publicly stated he expected to get a deal done with Carle, for "below market value". When that failed to materialize, he rolled the dice on bigger prizes and failed to get either.

Having an asset like JvR now would give him more flexibility to trade for a guy like Yandle, rather than sign a guy like Streit to an over 35 deal.

Regardless of the intent, the end result is icing the 29th best team in a 30 team league.
- Jsaquella

obvi. the wormed turned on homers tenure as GM, not when he traded carter/richie or even signed bryz, but w/ the JVR/carle moves. he completed a cycle of turnover that left the team w/ no top flight options on d to match what he brought in the previous team altering trades and then sent the only dynamic plyr besides G out for a limited ceiling plyr.

then we have the situation w/ bob, which we hope has been mitigated by the mason acquisition, but at this point, homer's behind the 8 ball...

obvi. the wormed turned on homers tenure as GM, not when he traded carter/richie or even signed bryz, but w/ the JVR/carle moves. he completed a cycle of turnover that left the team w/ no top flight options on d to match what he brought in the previous team altering trades and then sent the only dynamic plyr besides G out for a limited ceiling plyr.

then we have the situation w/ bob, which we hope has been mitigated by the mason acquisition, but at this point, homer's behind the 8 ball...
- isaiah520

This post is characterized by an opinion on what Schenn's potential ceiling is. I contend that Schenn's ceiling is higher then you think it is.

I think that you need defenseman like Luke Schenn just as much as you need mobile puck movers. I think one thing that's being overlooked, is that JVR wasn't going to get that player in a trade. Right now does not add up to an end result. There are still 70 games to play.
- MJL

I'm not arguing that you need both. The trouble is, when the Flyers traded for Schenn they had 3 guys that are similar to him, and only one guy that was an above average puck mover in Timonen. They lost Carle soon after the trade.

If JvR wasn't going to get that puck mover, then hang onto him, and trade him for a piece that fills a need, which honestly, Luke Schenn didn't. The Flyers had Grossmann, Coburn and Meszaros under contract. They needed a guy who could lug the puck and who had mobility.

This post is characterized by an opinion on what Schenn's potential ceiling is. I contend that Schenn's ceiling is higher then you think it is.
- MJL

i understand and completely respect that, but i disagree.

obvi. the wormed turned on homers tenure as GM, not when he traded carter/richie or even signed bryz, but w/ the JVR/carle moves. he completed a cycle of turnover that left the team w/ no top flight options on d to match what he brought in the previous team altering trades and then sent the only dynamic plyr besides G out for a limited ceiling plyr.

then we have the situation w/ bob, which we hope has been mitigated by the mason acquisition, but at this point, homer's behind the 8 ball...
- isaiah520

The problem is, with the Carle loss and JvR/Schenn trade is, the Flyers added a less mobile, average puck skill guy to a defense that had 3 guys who were similar. When they lost Carle, the only remaining guy with both good mobility and puck skills was Timonen.

They traded JvR to add guy that had a skill set they didn't need and then lost a guy who's skillset was definitely needed.

I'm not arguing that you need both. The trouble is, when the Flyers traded for Schenn they had 3 guys that are similar to him, and only one guy that was an above average puck mover in Timonen. They lost Carle soon after the trade.

If JvR wasn't going to get that puck mover, then hang onto him, and trade him for a piece that fills a need, which honestly, Luke Schenn didn't. The Flyers had Grossmann, Coburn and Meszaros under contract. They needed a guy who could lug the puck and who had mobility.
- Jsaquella

I disagree that Luke Schenn didn't fill a need. There was a definite need for good young defenseman in the Organization. Meszaros is in the last year of his deal, and likely isn't going to be back. And the Flyers can always trade one of Coburn or Grossmann. Holmgren gambled on getting Weber. Again, I have no problem with that. I'm glad he did that, and hope he tries to do something like that again if the opportunity arises. I'm not going to doom the Organization because of losing Carle and trading JVR.

I'm not arguing that you need both. The trouble is, when the Flyers traded for Schenn they had 3 guys that are similar to him, and only one guy that was an above average puck mover in Timonen. They lost Carle soon after the trade.

If JvR wasn't going to get that puck mover, then hang onto him, and trade him for a piece that fills a need, which honestly, Luke Schenn didn't. The Flyers had Grossmann, Coburn and Meszaros under contract. They needed a guy who could lug the puck and who had mobility.
- Jsaquella

6/23/12 @ 6:46 pm

Just heard- HORRID!

Pwr fwds often take as long as dmen to develop. Jvr has shown dynamic flashes in his game and he was moved for a guy w/ a clear ceiling- think Matt Greene w/ better outlet pass ability. Not the offensive puck moving force we needed and the jvr asset is gone.

... And it's not like we haven't had time to think about this either. As a 1 for 1 swap, If jvr is reasonably healthy, it's a slam dunk win for TOR.
- isaiah520

i understand and completely respect that, but i disagree.
- isaiah520

Time is going to tell. But Schenn has already shown signs of how good he is capable of playing in this League. He is still young. And Schenn has been every bit as good of a defenseman at times, as JVR has been as a forward at times in this League. And defenseman is a far more important and valued position then Wing.

would love to see kimmo go to isle to to help that young core out in a playoff run

I disagree that Luke Schenn didn't fill a need. There was a definite need for good young defenseman in the Organization. Meszaros is in the last year of his deal, and likely isn't going to be back. And the Flyers can always trade one of Coburn or Grossmann. Holmgren gambled on getting Weber. Again, I have no problem with that. I'm glad he did that, and hope he tries to do something like that again if the opportunity arises. I'm not going to doom the Organization because of losing Carle and trading JVR.
- MJL

I'm not dooming the organization over the loss of JvR and Carle...I'm taking issue with a GM whose team has progressively gotten worse over the past three years, and definitely label the moves he has made and gambles that he took and failed on, as symptoms of that decline.

In 2010, the Flyers were in the Final, taking the champs to game six OT. Three years later, they're coming off a season where they missed the playoffs and are currently the second worst team in the NHL. Every player on the roster was acquired by the current GM and over the last season and a half, it's been a very unsuccessful team.

I can agree with that simply because of his lack of foot speed, which he will need to overcome with good positioning. If he fails to progress with his read and react skills, he'll top out as a third line d-man.

And I agree that there is plenty of room for development simply because he's lacking in those areas to date.
- 77rams

If he misreads a play, or gets out of position, he does not have the foot speed to recover. That was one of the biggest reasons why Toronto fans labeled him as slow. It was all due to positioning, and getting out of it to throw hits.

I'm not dooming the organization over the loss of JvR and Carle...I'm taking issue with a GM whose team has progressively gotten worse over the past three years, and definitely label the moves he has made and gambles that he took and failed on, as symptoms of that decline.

In 2010, the Flyers were in the Final, taking the champs to game six OT. Three years later, they're coming off a season where they missed the playoffs and are currently the second worst team in the NHL. Every player on the roster was acquired by the current GM and over the last season and a half, it's been a very unsuccessful team.
- Jsaquella

We knew that trading Richards and Carter was going to be taking steps back, to hopefully be better in the future. That future is still upon us. Still have a lot of young players that aren't close to where they could be in the future. And I think the biggest reasons for where the team is right now, is due to the previous Coach. And the current Coach is trying to dig his way out of that. And I think there's a lot of positive signs that they are heading in that direction. This is a team for the future, not now. I think that is lost here. And that's not even taking into consideration the Pronger injury.

We knew that trading Richards and Carter was going to be taking steps back, to hopefully be better in the future. That future is still upon us. Still have a lot of young players that aren't close to where they could be in the future. And I think the biggest reasons for where the team is right now, is due to the previous Coach. And the current Coach is trying to dig his way out of that. And I think there's a lot of positive signs that they are heading in that direction. This is a team for the future, not now. I think that is lost here.
- MJL

It's not lost here...but if it's a team for the future, why sign Streit? Why sign Lecavalier? You can say that it's a team for the future all you want, but the expectations of the owner and GM are to contend now.

I agree with handing Laviolette his share of the blame. But it's becoming real evident that this team, as constructed, isn't very good. There's talent, for sure, but it's either not producing or not meshing well and leading to team success.

The plan changes on whims. They sign guys to massive, long term deals and then they are traded away within a year or two. The reason people joke about guys signing new deals with the Flyers should expect to be traded is because it's got a lot of validity. Richards, Carter, JvR all signed 6+ year extensions within 2 years of being traded away. That's really not sticking to a plan.

The result has been a team getting progressively worse, and one that is forever making quick fixes to shore things up, rather than actually planning out the process.

It's not lost here...but if it's a team for the future, why sign Streit? Why sign Lecavalier? You can say that it's a team for the future all you want, but the expectations of the owner and GM are to contend now.

I agree with handing Laviolette his share of the blame. But it's becoming real evident that this team, as constructed, isn't very good. There's talent, for sure, but it's either not producing or not meshing well and leading to team success.

The plan changes on whims. They sign guys to massive, long term deals and then they are traded away within a year or two. The reason people joke about guys signing new deals with the Flyers should expect to be traded is because it's got a lot of validity. Richards, Carter, JvR all signed 6+ year extensions within 2 years of being traded away. That's really not sticking to a plan.

The result has been a team getting progressively worse, and one that is forever making quick fixes to shore things up, rather than actually planning out the process.
- Jsaquella

this is a great point. and my major problem with flyers management.

jvr with a shortie tonight for his 7th.

jvr with a shortie tonight for his 7th.
- Briere

Luke Schenn remains without a point tonight. Pathetic.

woah

Ryan Parker ‏@ryanparkerdp
BREAKING: Colorado Avalanche goalie Semyon Varlamov turns himself in to Denver Police for domestic violence charges. Story forthcoming

Luke Schenn remains without a point tonight. Pathetic.
- feelingkettle

just for the record, i dont dislike L schenn. i just didnt like the trade.

just for the record, i dont dislike L schenn. i just didnt like the trade.
- Briere

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

It's not lost here...but if it's a team for the future, why sign Streit? Why sign Lecavalier? You can say that it's a team for the future all you want, but the expectations of the owner and GM are to contend now.

I agree with handing Laviolette his share of the blame. But it's becoming real evident that this team, as constructed, isn't very good. There's talent, for sure, but it's either not producing or not meshing well and leading to team success.

The plan changes on whims. They sign guys to massive, long term deals and then they are traded away within a year or two. The reason people joke about guys signing new deals with the Flyers should expect to be traded is because it's got a lot of validity. Richards, Carter, JvR all signed 6+ year extensions within 2 years of being traded away. That's really not sticking to a plan.

The result has been a team getting progressively worse, and one that is forever making quick fixes to shore things up, rather than actually planning out the process.
- Jsaquella

I'll never forget how upset my buddy was when the Flyers traded for Pronger. "He is old as hell, what one or two good years left?"

And that's just it, they made their bed with that trade, missed on a Cup, and now were in the cellar wondering how to get out.

Whoever this color analyst is for the Peterborough is not only a homer in calling the game but they said in 1996 as an assistant coach he went to center ice in the Sarnia building and chipped out the eyes of the team logo.