It's different in my view because not having the mental makeup to win, is a flaw that seems permanent. Where a lack of confidence can be overcome and repaired. I think the lack of confidence and the mental state that the team as a whole is in, has come from the situation under Laviolette. The players knew that they couldn't play the style of play that Laviolette wanted them to, and when you don't believe in something, you aren't going to be very good at it. That has led to a deep dysfunction that is team wide. Lots of bad habits were formed.
- MJL

Guys lite daigle, Fallon etc are guys with poor mental makeup. The drive to play and win is mental. Either you have that drive or you don't. The lack of confidence is overcome by the determination to win and overcome deficiencies.

The Junior Leagues don't want to lose all their big draws.
- MBFlyerfan

Exactly, what's more important the minor leagues or player development? That's why I say limit teams to 1 underage player per year.

One of the worst teams of the decade. But being that bad paid off in spades. The ultimate prize of Luke Schenn is well worth it!
- PLindbergh31

Kane vs JVR or Schenn..

Someone hates us.

too young for the AHL and do you really want him on the flyers with this mess?
- 2Real

I did at the beginning of the season if he was a top 12 forward.

3 players were moved out. JVR for Schenn. Carle was let go, but he has been replaced by Streit. And Bobrovsky was traded. Hopefully Mason's play in a Flyers uniform isn't a mirage. And if so, the Flyers have a young goalie in place for the future. And they still have a solid young core to build around. So I think that not having anything to show for it, is misleading.
- MJL

when you're radically re-tooling, bringing in young forwards is not enuf. this goes back to carter/richards. as i maintained at the time - and as Bill rightly pointed out- a team so dependent on 2 dmen on the downside had to have a succession plan- they failed - homer failed and will likely be out of a job if the team misses the playoffs.

the GM will be measured by how he puts the whole team together, not just on whether or not he got a perceived "fair value" in a trade..my comments about the JVR trade aside, the chain of events the last 3 yrs is enuf of an indictment. the saddest part of this 1-7 start is that it looks so much like last yr and most of us saw something like this coming...they were dead out of the gate.

the Jets and Sabres are going to be thorns in our sides all season, eh?

Bill, I really hope that the Buff rumors are not true. We already have big, and slow guys on the D-end. They serve their purpose, but it's not what our team needs. I also don't know why we don't mention the positives from this situation. Since our injuries, our call-ups have been doing an admirable job. Gus, and McGinn have been out playing the rest of the group. Maybe we should look at getting some character guys, and quit handing out those long term contracts. Everyone is looking for the next Pronger, but quite frankly I don't see a player like him around. I like size in a player, too. But, if he can't move, clear the puck. handle the puck, etc.. we might as well just find more Rosehill like players to fill the roster. When we lose a couple of contracts at the end of the season, then it will free up some salary money; so no worries about the cap next year, and we don't always have to be up against the cap. In addition, our team has to learn to develop players, and not just try to pick up a vet at the trade deadline. That being said, quit with the long term contracts, sign skilled and character players, quit signing the biggest guys around, and you just might have a competitive team. You can switch coaches, and GM's all you want, but if your players are not what the team needs, then why keep banging your head against a brick wall?

I thought we were talking about this years team? Where is the leadership on this team? You say the team is not playing because they lost confidence after playing for a coach who forced them into the wrong system. I think they aren't playing well because it's a poorly constructed team.
- Dkos

So you think that the Flyers just preferred soldiers over leaders just this Season? One of the players they brought in Streit, is a former Captain. As far as the latter is concerned, I guess we disagree. No doubt in my mind that this roster can be a playoff team.

Guys lite daigle, Fallon etc are guys with poor mental makeup. The drive to play and win is mental. Either you have that drive or you don't. The lack of confidence is overcome by the determination to win and overcome deficiencies.
- bird_dog

I agree.

when you're radically re-tooling, bringing in young forwards is not enuf. this goes back to carter/richards. as i maintained at the time - and as Bill rightly pointed out- a team so dependent on 2 dmen on the downside had to have a succession plan- they failed - homer failed and will likely be out of a job if the team misses the playoffs.

the GM will be measured by how he puts the whole team together, not just on whether or not he got a perceived "fair value" in a trade..my comments about the JVR trade aside, the chain of events the last 3 yrs is enuf of an indictment. the saddest part of this 1-7 start is that it looks so much like last yr and most of us saw something like this coming...they were dead out of the gate.
- isaiah520

Were you against the Richards and Carter trades? Or didn't like the return? It's real easy to put a succession plan together. Hell, any of us could do that. It's being able to accomplish it that is the issue. And it's clear that in trying to acquire both Suter and Weber, that there was a plan. But Holmgren was not i total control there. As Suter had a say in where he played as a UFA. And Nashville had the right to match. What's overlooked here, and what's overlooked again and again, is how hard it is to replace a Pronger. It just doesn't happen. And that injury is not Holmgren's fault. Are you seriously saying that you saw what has happened so far this Season coming? And that most of us saw it coming? That they'd be 1-7 and have this much trouble scoring. That Giroux would have zero goals in the first 8 games? I don't think so. Most of the blame for the last few Seasons falls on Laviolette in my opinion, not Holmgren.

Bill, I really hope that the Buff rumors are not true. We already have big, and slow guys on the D-end. They serve their purpose, but it's not what our team needs. I also don't know why we don't mention the positives from this situation. Since our injuries, our call-ups have been doing an admirable job. Gus, and McGinn have been out playing the rest of the group. Maybe we should look at getting some character guys, and quit handing out those long term contracts. Everyone is looking for the next Pronger, but quite frankly I don't see a player like him around. I like size in a player, too. But, if he can't move, clear the puck. handle the puck, etc.. we might as well just find more Rosehill like players to fill the roster. When we lose a couple of contracts at the end of the season, then it will free up some salary money; so no worries about the cap next year, and we don't always have to be up against the cap. In addition, our team has to learn to develop players, and not just try to pick up a vet at the trade deadline. That being said, quit with the long term contracts, sign skilled and character players, quit signing the biggest guys around, and you just might have a competitive team. You can switch coaches, and GM's all you want, but if your players are not what the team needs, then why keep banging your head against a brick wall?
- OrangeAndBlack1

I'm against bringing in Byfuglien also. He's big, but he's not slow. And he can handle the puck. How are you going to sign skilled, character guys if you don't sign them to long term contracts?

So you think that the Flyers just preferred soldiers over leaders just this Season? One of the players they brought in Streit, is a former Captain. As far as the latter is concerned, I guess we disagree. No doubt in my mind that this roster can be a playoff team.
- MJL

No, I think that's part if their culture. Pronger was a departure from their usual "lead by example" quiet leader-type. I know Holgren was trying to bring some leadership back by picking up Vinny and Streit. They don't seem to be the inspiring leaders that this team needs.

No, I think that's part if their culture. Pronger was a departure from their usual "lead by example" quiet leader-type. I know Holgren was trying to bring some leadership back by picking up Vinny and Streit. They don't seem to be the inspiring leaders that this team needs.
- Dkos

Not sure what you're basing it on, how it's part of their culture. There aren't many players that could pull this team out of this funk, all by themselves with inspiring leadership.

too young for the AHL and do you really want him on the flyers with this mess?
- 2Real

I'm fine with Laughton getting another OHL season to rack up some points. Two guys picked just head of Couturier in 2011 (Strome and Scheifele) played in the OHL last year as 19 year olds and it didn't do them any harm.

http://www.ontariohockeyl.../top_scorers/ls_season/46

Hal Gill in the locker room is really making a difference...........
If you want accountability, the guys have to play for each other and the coach within the confines of the system. Who here is going to give the guy next to him in the locker room a verbal butt whipping and actually be listened to. As bad as the pieces are in terms of fit though not all individually bad somehow I think the team was screwed mentally from the Devils series in 2012 onwards. As much as I want the players to be responsible to each other and execute good basic hockey, the amount of drama ( Bryz, Briere etc, )the lockout, poor conditioning, injuires and perhaps some self realization which affects confidence has strangled this team. Its almost like they are playing to be traded to get out of the spotlight and the win now mentality.

This team is nowheres near as bad as they are showing adn they are not championships material, they are playoff bubble on all cylinders.

How can the coach being fired way too late and the GM on the hot seat and an overly meddlesome owner not affect an overall situation for the players as employees ?? If I was working for such a truly dysfunctional employer I would want out and there would be 29 other potential employers for me.

Personally, I was being screwed around with by a long term previous employer when an injury was not operated on with the highest standard of care and required a limb rebuild. I pulled a Johnny Paycheck on them,,, remember that song Take this job and .......

So translating that to an unhealthy confused work environment, even for millionaires I can understand. Its the same as soldiers with bad generals getting killed needlessly

I'm fine with Laughton getting another OHL season to rack up some points. Two guys picked just head of Couturier in 2011 (Strome and Scheifele) played in the OHL last year as 19 year olds and it didn't do them any harm.

http://www.ontariohockeyl.../top_scorers/ls_season/46
- Feanor

Scheifele is not the same as he only played 3 Junior Seasons. I don't think it's going to harm Laughton. But I think playing in Pro Hockey this Season would've been better for his development then playing a 4th Junior Season against players that he is better then, and more mature then.

Maybe, but where Laughton plays this season is the least of the Flyers problems.

Once Hartnell and Vinny are healthy they will need to find room for a lot of talented forwards even without Laughton. One of Raffl and McGinn will either be sent back to the AHL or end up on the 4th line.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
McGinn-Talbot-Rinaldo

Maybe, but where Laughton plays this season is the least of the Flyers problems.

Once Hartnell and Vinny are healthy they will need to find room for a lot of talented forwards even without Laughton. One of Raffl and McGinn will either be sent back to the AHL or end up on the 4th line.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
McGinn-Talbot-Rinaldo
- Feanor

talented?

Maybe, but where Laughton plays this season is the least of the Flyers problems.

Once Hartnell and Vinny are healthy they will need to find room for a lot of talented forwards even without Laughton. One of Raffl and McGinn will either be sent back to the AHL or end up on the 4th line.

Hartnell-Giroux-Voracek
Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds
Raffl-Couturier-Read
McGinn-Talbot-Rinaldo
- Feanor

At this point, I'd put Simmonds on the 4th line

So you were against the Richards and Carter trades? Or didn't like the return? It's real easy to put a succession plan together. Hell, any of us could do that. It's being able to accomplish it that is the issue. And it's clear that in trying to acquire both Suter and Weber, that there was a plan. But Holmgren was not i total control there. As Suter had a say in where he played as a UFA. And Nashville had the right to match. What's overlooked here, and what's overlooked again and again, is how hard it is to replace a Pronger. It just doesn't happen. And that injury is not Holmgren's fault. Are you seriously saying that you saw what has happened so far this Season coming? And that most of us saw it coming? That they'd be 1-7 and have this much trouble scoring. That Giroux would have zero goals in the first 8 games? I don't think so. Most of the blame for the last few Seasons falls on Laviolette in my opinion, not Holmgren.
- MJL

hoping you'll get a UFA is not a plan and this is a results business, so where is the dman? he's not here, is he? not pronger in his prime, but at least a potential top pair plyr that could be groomed...and the team has slid backwards, haven't they? and the mix of plyrs on d and apparently up front, is poor and that's on the GM, isn't it? and they have had trouble scoring 5-on-5 since last season, haven't they? you've consistently failed to track how one mistake by the GM led to another (like carle/streit)...and you would have completed this clusterphuck if you had your way by bringing bryz back, wouldn't you? nuff said...

hoping you'll get a UFA is not a plan and this is a results business, so where is the dman? he's not here, is he? not pronger in his prime, but at least a potential top pair plyr that could be groomed...and the team has slid backwards, haven't they? and the mix of plyrs on d and apparently up front, is poor and that's on the GM, isn't it? and they have had trouble scoring 5-on-5 since last season, haven't they? you've consistently failed to track how one mistake by the GM led to another (like carle/streit)...and you would have completed this clusterphuck if you had your way by bringing bryz back, wouldn't you? nuff said...
- isaiah520

Targeting UFA's is absolutely a plan. And is a large part of how teams fill needs. They have a potential top pair player in Schenn. They also have Morin who has tons of potential. Along with Haag, Ghostibhere, and Alt. Why has the team slid backwards is the issue. One of the reasons, and probably the biggert reason is the injury to Pronger. But that is somehow Holmgren's fault I guess. And also why have they had trouble scoring at 5 on 5. That is not on the GM. That's on the previous Coach and the players. Unless you think it's Holmgren's fault that Giroux, Voracek, Read and Hartnell have scored zero goals combined in 8 games so far this Season. Here's what I have tracked. The Flyers franchise defenseman suffered a career ending injury. That led to Holmgren trying to obtain Shea Weber. And he was willing to risk losing Carle to do so. I stand behind him in that. Even though it failed. And the reason why is because if you do lose Carle, it's not the end of the World. You can replace Carle, as they did with adding Striet. He's a step below as an overall player to Carle, but he replaces the offensive production, and is a better PP QB and goal producer from the back end. And opportunities to go after a player like Weber don't come around that ofen. And you know where "nuff said" comes into play? How you have to make this more about me then Holmgren.

I'd guess consider this them finally not rushing a prospect and doing the right thing for him & the team.
- ob18

I'm probably in the minority but I never wanted Couturier on the team 2 years ago. I really wanted to see him go back for another junior season and a spot on the world junior team. but thats me. I am not a huge fan of rushing prospects.

talented?
- vejim

Misguided? I don't really know what "talented" means.

They are all talented - every player in the league is talented to a different degree - but are they given a winning plan and placed in a position to utilize their respective talents effectively?

I really liked the podcast, I hope we see them more often

Err, hear them more often. Or see them, followed by hearing them. Yes, let's go with that.

At this point, I'd put Simmonds on the 4th line
- JFlyers00

Agreed, he's never shown any promise on scoring lines. He's clearly the reason that half of our team is snake-bitten. I say we try to send him down to the minors if possible.