The Flyers had 103 points in 2011-12. That was the sixth best point total in the NHL. That's pretty successful.

They got good value in the Carter and Richards trades, but they definitely miss the two way game that Richards brought. Even Carter was a solid and capable two way forward.

Thus far, Schenn hasn't replicated his two way play as a stud in juniors and Couturier hasn't been able to find offensive success. There's a developmental curve at play, but also, there's issues in how they have been utilized.
- Jsaquella

in bold, acquiring Vinny was a move in completely different direction.
If Schenn broke out as a top 6 scoring player with solid 2 way play last season, do they hand Vinny 5 years?
They change the plan way too much

Like they say... its not about having the best players.. its about having the right players.
We also bought into the hype that B. Schenn was some kind of 2nd coming of Richards. It could be that Schenn and Coots really aren't anything special.
- Flyersgod

I just watched Miracle to get in Hockey mode to kick off the season, and when Russell said that at tryouts I laughed and instantly thought of the Flyers.

At this point I'm really not sure what to make of Schenn and Couts - whether it is the player or the position they're put in. Schenn was considered a natural 2nd line center, and he's never really been handed those reigns. He had some time there when Briere was out, but considering that neither he nor Briere had a lot of success there, maybe it wasn't all on them.

Really, same with Couts. Has he been given the right set of wingers and responsibilities to help him reach his potential?

Unfortunately, signing Vinnie means that neither gets the 2nd line C position. But if they added a second line sniper, at least Couts could be given the same talent as a 2nd line in Schenn/Read.

Good points. I think hextall will do the right things here. I suspect we can't have deboer but we can get a promising coach fr junior or the a.
- Hextall271

There's plenty of options...Jake's mentioned Willie Desjardins of the Texas Stars. I'd be totally on board with him. Even a retread, like Guy Boucher, would be acceptable to me.

My initial response to Berube would be

But, I'd be open to seeing what he could do. If they do go in house, I'd rather see Murray as an interim, brought in to instill discipline and responsible two way play.

He's obviously not a long term choice, but the guy is a capable coach that can help teams play better two way hockey.

My concern with Berube is two fold. One, he's never been a head coach. I have no idea if he's capable or not. The second concern is, he's already on the staff. The team is an undisciplined mess. Some of the fingerprints belong to him.
- Jsaquella

my only worry is vinny wouldn't fit in with murray's style but other than that i'm all in on murray we need discipline

I want to be clear, this is the hand we've been dealt now so be patient and really see what these guys can be. Don't trade them. I'm just thinking the trades have not worked as planned here
- Hextall271

They haven't. I just want to know if it's because they mishandled the players or if they simply over valued them.

Still too early to tell for sure, but the last real success in the regular season we had was with Richards Carter and Bob in 2010-11. At mid season, we were right at the top of the league. We played well in 2011-12 for the most part, but it's starting to look like there were 3 bad trades that set us back in dealing those 3 guys to essentially bring in Bryz and forward depth.
- Hextall271

I still can't comprehend trading those guys after they make it to the cup finals. I don't mind the trades now, but the mindset I still can't grasp. Wow we almost won the cup, lets rebuild.

There's plenty of options...Jake's mentioned Willie Desjardins of the Texas Stars. I'd be totally on board with him. Even a retread, like Guy Boucher, would be acceptable to me.
- Jsaquella

Guy Boucher?
Soccer on ice..........at least we wouldn't get blown out too much

in bold, acquiring Vinny was a move in completely different direction.
If Schenn broke out as a top 6 scoring player with solid 2 way play last season, do they hand Vinny 5 years?
They change the plan way too much
- puckhead17

They do, and that has to stop. The coach and GM need to be on the same page.

Believe me, I'm not saying Laviolette being fired fixes all the woes. It's just a first step.

I just watched Miracle to get in Hockey mode to kick off the season, and when Russell said that at tryouts I laughed and instantly thought of the Flyers.

At this point I'm really not sure what to make of Schenn and Couts - whether it is the player or the position they're put in. Schenn was considered a natural 2nd line center, and he's never really been handed those reigns. He had some time there when Briere was out, but considering that neither he nor Briere had a lot of success there, maybe it wasn't all on them.

Really, same with Couts. Has he been given the right set of wingers and responsibilities to help him reach his potential?

Unfortunately, signing Vinnie means that neither gets the 2nd line C position. But if they added a second line sniper, at least Couts could be given the same talent as a 2nd line in Schenn/Read.
- TheGreat28

Schenn isn't anything special. I've thought that from the first time I saw him play. Coots is more of a ? mark then Schenn at this point.

I don't even know anymore. I find myself not even caring. They're boring as dog poop to watch play.

I still can't comprehend trading those guys after they make it to the cup finals. I don't mind the trades now, but the mindset I still can't grasp. Wow we almost won the cup, lets rebuild.
- Flyersgod

yeah, they go to LA with more booze & nightlife & help contribute to a cup

Glad I recorded the game so I could fast forward through it. It was a good 5-10 minutes but after that it sucked. It feels like I'm watching games from last year. There is clearly an issue with this team. I have to figure Lava doesn't have the players ear same as last year. Homer should have known this was a problem and they should have made a change over the long summer.

No need for Rosehill to play in a game like last night, there are plenty of better players on the Phantoms, for me I'd like see McGinn out there.

I just don't get this team.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this movie before. Same issues the Flyers have had for the past 2-3 seasons. Lack of discipline, poor puck support, inability to move the puck on the back end, poor gaps b/t forwards & D, inexplicable defensive coverage breakdowns, trouble gaining the zone on the PP, anemic 5-5 offensive #'s.

I'm not a big fire the coach guy, but I haven't seen a single thing change, w/some new players, a very lengthy offseason, and a full training camp.

What's the excuse now, guys?

in bold, acquiring Vinny was a move in completely different direction.If Schenn broke out as a top 6 scoring player with solid 2 way play last season, do they hand Vinny 5 years?
They change the plan way too much
- puckhead17

Agree and was typing the same thing at the same time.

I'm pretty sure I've seen this movie before. Same issues the Flyers have had for the past 2-3 seasons. Lack of discipline, poor puck support, inability to move the puck on the back end, poor gaps b/t forwards & D, inexplicable defensive coverage breakdowns, trouble gaining the zone on the PP, anemic 5-5 offensive #'s.

I'm not a big fire the coach guy, but I haven't seen a single thing change, w/some new players, a very lengthy offseason, and a full training camp.

What's the excuse now, guys?
- flyguy12

the apologists would say bad luck but 1-9 isn't bad luck that's just bad

Guy Boucher?
Soccer on ice..........at least we wouldn't get blown out too much
- puckhead17

He coached the way he had too with the team he had. Outside of the big 3, they had a mediocre team. I'd love to see what his system could do with the offensive ability the Flyers have in Giroux, Voracek and others, creating odd man rushes in the neutral zone, rather than trying to force everything through a trap

the apologists would say bad luck but 1-9 isn't bad luck that's just bad
- 2Real

To me the writing is on the wall. I'm a proactive guy, my concern is the Flyers brass will wait until it's too late to do anything.

So...when do the Flyers get a new coach? Lavy's system doesn't work for this team and he doesn't seem to get it. It's going to be a long season without a change.

To me the writing is on the wall. I'm a proactive guy, my concern is the Flyers brass will wait until it's too late to do anything.
- flyguy12

their timing with team movements has been pretty awful

Agree and was typing the same thing at the same time.
- TheGreat28

when you trade 2 cornerstone pieces for younger guys (4 of them), & give them 1 & 1/2 seasons to elevate & mature their games) then hand Vinny (sorry, his contract is still biting me) 5 years to play the role of 2 of the guys you were building on/with.

I think the plan changes ever time Snider blows out candles

He coached the way he had too with the team he had. Outside of the big 3, they had a mediocre team. I'd love to see what his system could do with the offensive ability the Flyers have in Giroux, Voracek and others, creating odd man rushes in the neutral zone, rather than trying to force everything through a trap
- Jsaquella

imagine them switching gears from run & gun to sit way the hell back & wait, the players may all go into shock

when you trade 2 cornerstone pieces for younger guys (4 of them), & give them 1 & 1/2 seasons to elevate & mature their games) then hand Vinny (sorry, his contract is still biting me) 5 years to play the role of 2 of the guys you were building on/with.

I think the plan changes ever time Snider blows out candles
- puckhead17

i have no problem with the vinny signing at this current time period he's better than schenn or couturier

Still too early to tell for sure, but the last real success in the regular season we had was with Richards Carter and Bob in 2010-11. At mid season, we were right at the top of the league. We played well in 2011-12 for the most part, but it's starting to look like there were 3 bad trades that set us back in dealing those 3 guys to essentially bring in Bryz and forward depth.
- Hextall271

I think the 2011-12 team was much better balanced with Jagr and JVR occupying 2 of the top 6. Long-term I still think they regret the JVR trade. Schenn's a nice piece but still not sure if he is a 2 or a 3, and JVR has all-star potential and is seemingly starting to reach it.

i have no problem with the vinny signing at this current time period he's better than schenn or couturier
- 2Real

he's played 16 years? & here's a check for 5 more?

I've said before the season started that Lavi won't make it to American Thanksgiving. If they lose to Carolina, Florida, and Phoenix this week, he won't make Canadian Thanksgiving.

the lack of energy/drive in only the 2nd game of the season is very troubling. It seemed that Lacavcalier and Schenn were the only forwards with any jump last night.

On D I thought both Coburn and Grossmann struggled last night while Mezaros played pretty well. I would make some lineup and line changes tonight and would go with:
Read-Lacavalier-Giroux
Hartnell-Couturier-Voracek
Talbot-Schenn-Simmonds
Newbury-Hall-Rinaldo

Timonen-Schenn
Streit-Mezaros
Gustafsson-Grossmann

Maybe being scratched will wake Coburn up.
- BiggE

No way Giroux Is our best faceoff guy. Keep the lines they way they were but swap Hartnell and Voracek. Hartnell has been awful. Wont shoot and makes bad passes. On D put Gus in. Flyers D played much better while Coburn was injured last season so why not try that again.