To me it's more a lack o discipline than a lack of tenacity. They run around, all over the ice. In the offensive zone, in the defensive zone, in the neutral zone. There's no cohesion, no discipline in their game.

That's why teams like the Devils and Rangers destroy them. They stay disciplined within their systems and grind the Flyers out.
- Jsaquella

Exactly, how many time do you see all 3 forwards behind the opponents net? or both defenseman going after the puck carrier and leaving someone wide open in front of the net? or forwards leaving the zone too early or giving up on their backchecking? I keep seeing these things happen over and over again. Now combine that with continuing to take lazy penalties and you have a recipe for disaster.

I'm not sure what the solution for this team is...coaching change? Scoring 3rd line winger? No idea.

I'm not sure if it was mentioned last night but on Hockey Night in Canada they were talking about the #1 struggle for the Flyers is the way they chase the puck in their own zone. It's like they never really have control of it.

This leads me to believe they need a more balanced style of play which leads to a coaching philosophy change or if Lavi can't it's a new coach.
- Manitobakid

it seems the Devils for example acquire players to fit the system they employ, OR the coach adjusts to a style that suits his players talent, skill, ability strengths etc.

not to use the Devils as anything more then just a philosophical example

maybe there is confusion to the system leading to apprehensive play? (which can appear to be laziness?
summer is finally over, the season is finally here, now this..............

Would a loss today lead to the of lavy? I want him gone.
- MrPerfect316

You know, if the team doesn't show up and loses like 5-0, then I see it as a possibility. We'd be 1-10 with preseason with 2 goals scored. I thought the team gave the old college try in game 1, but I can see them losing faith here. They're human and you get frustrated and start to wonder if they can win under the current coach.

With this continued 5 on 5 play, this will be Hextall and new Coach's team by US Thanksgiving. This team is too good for these results. Why would Lavy not use the "simplied" system that closed out last year ... winning games?

Right now, I feel the roster is being mishandled by the coach. In that regard it's hard for me to really get a feel for what player moves I'd be trying to make.

Take a guy like Coburn. His play has been poor, no question. But is it because the coach demands he go out and do things he's not capable of? Or is it because he's not a good player and needs to be dumped?

That's the conundrum I face in evaluating this team. I'm not saying that the players or GM should be safe. I'm saying that making big changes on the roster without first seeing the effects of a coaching change/current coach making adjustments is foolish and that I want to see them get that new coach, or see the current coach make changes, then evaluate.
- Jsaquella

But isn't that an indictment of Holmgren? Obviously, he picked the coach, knowing full well what system Lavi plays. Laviolette consistently has resisted changing the system, and defended it. Holmgren's job is to then go out and get players that fit the system.

I won't knock him as much about the defense - the kind of players they need do not grow on trees, and he has made efforts each of the last two offseason to get them. But I don't think he has the right mix on the offensive side either, and that should have been in his controllable. The pieces individually are nice, they just don't blend well together.

Would a loss today lead to the of lavy? I want him gone.
- MrPerfect316

3 losses in a row on top of a crappy pre-season definitely shortens Lavi's plank. I wouldn't be at all surprised that if they lose tonight management makes the decision to pull the plug on him sooner rather than later, and only a serious winning streak will stop the headman's axe.

yeah, can you spell "old boy network" B E R U B E
- puckhead17

My initial response to Berube would be

But, I'd be open to seeing what he could do. If they do go in house, I'd rather see Murray as an interim, brought in to instill discipline and responsible two way play.

He's obviously not a long term choice, but the guy is a capable coach that can help teams play better two way hockey.

My concern with Berube is two fold. One, he's never been a head coach. I have no idea if he's capable or not. The second concern is, he's already on the staff. The team is an undisciplined mess. Some of the fingerprints belong to him.

My initial response to Berube would be

But, I'd be open to seeing what he could do. If they do go in house, I'd rather see Murray as an interim, brought in to instill discipline and responsible two way play.

He's obviously not a long term choice, but the guy is a capable coach that can help teams play better two way hockey.

My concern with Berube is two fold. One, he's never been a head coach. I have no idea if he's capable or not. The second concern is, he's already on the staff. The team is an undisciplined mess. Some of the fingerprints belong to him.
- Jsaquella

I have no interest in seeing Berube as the next coach, I would rather have Murray, and let Berube get head coaching experience in Adirondack

With this continued 5 on 5 play, this will be Hextall and new Coach's team by US Thanksgiving. This team is too good for these results. Why would Lavy not use the "simplied" system that closed out last year ... winning games?
- PhiFaninEdm

I agree to this. Homer has done a lot for the team, but this is as much on him as it is on Lavy. Time for a new direction. It was wise to bring Hextall in so now we have a succession plan. In a perfect world, I would change the coach during the season if possible (interim guy), then let Hexy learn the prospects etc, and get a feel for what we have and what we need. Let Homer go in the offseason. Get a solid coach from junior or the AHL and go from there. Another issue is that we've used the buyouts so it will be harder for Hexy to fix this mess if he wants to make big changes. Hope the cap goes up.

But isn't that an indictment of Holmgren? Obviously, he picked the coach, knowing full well what system Lavi plays. Laviolette consistently has resisted changing the system, and defended it. Holmgren's job is to then go out and get players that fit the system.

I won't knock him as much about the defense - the kind of players they need do not grow on trees, and he has made efforts each of the last two offseason to get them. But I don't think he has the right mix on the offensive side either, and that should have been in his controllable. The pieces individually are nice, they just don't blend well together.
- TheGreat28

Like they say... its not about having the best players.. its about having the right players.

We also bought into the hype that B. Schenn was some kind of 2nd coming of Richards. It could be that Schenn and Coots really aren't anything special.

But isn't that an indictment of Holmgren? Obviously, he picked the coach, knowing full well what system Lavi plays. Laviolette consistently has resisted changing the system, and defended it. Holmgren's job is to then go out and get players that fit the system.

I won't knock him as much about the defense - the kind of players they need do not grow on trees, and he has made efforts each of the last two offseason to get them. But I don't think he has the right mix on the offensive side either, and that should have been in his controllable. The pieces individually are nice, they just don't blend well together.
- TheGreat28

a puck moving go go go system doesn't employ (usually) stay at home D men in Coburn Schenn Grossmann & a 7th guy in Gill. (problem with Coburn is being a big guy who skates very well sometimes may appear to be a puck rusher, he struggles doing that as well as playing 25 minutes) so do they have the proper pieces in place to play the way the coach wants to?

Interesting to see what happen today if they go down 0-3

To me it's more a lack o discipline than a lack of tenacity. They run around, all over the ice. In the offensive zone, in the defensive zone, in the neutral zone. There's no cohesion, no discipline in their game.

That's why teams like the Devils and Rangers destroy them. They stay disciplined within their systems and grind the Flyers out.
- Jsaquella

I agree about discipline, but still think fighting for the puck is an issue. Consider someone like Schenn who played center his whole life - maybe that's just not his game. If I remember correctly you are generally ok with converting centers to winger - but personally I think it's not a good overall strategy.

Sometimes it works -(Gagne), sometimes it takes a long time (Carter seemingly is starting to embrace it, though his best year by far was at C), and sometimes it just doesn't work (Briere, though Montreal is still trying to play him at wing, so we'll see).

I've read other coaches/GM's that share that opinion, and of course many who share the opinion that you can always convert a center. But the Flyers have consistently overloaded with centers, maybe that is part of the problem.

My initial response to Berube would be

But, I'd be open to seeing what he could do. If they do go in house, I'd rather see Murray as an interim, brought in to instill discipline and responsible two way play.

He's obviously not a long term choice, but the guy is a capable coach that can help teams play better two way hockey.

My concern with Berube is two fold. One, he's never been a head coach. I have no idea if he's capable or not. The second concern is, he's already on the staff. The team is an undisciplined mess. Some of the fingerprints belong to him.
- Jsaquella

The ONLY way I go with Berube is as an interim coach in a lost season (which I now see as a possibility). Get someone outside the org. Imagine if we had gotten a guy like DeBoer? What he could do with this talent?

I think it was one of the hockey central sportsnet guys who said he thought that Montreal is a borderline playoff team and that Philly was in major trouble after the first game. I thought he was out to lunch, but now I think they might be spot on.

But isn't that an indictment of Holmgren? Obviously, he picked the coach, knowing full well what system Lavi plays. Laviolette consistently has resisted changing the system, and defended it. Holmgren's job is to then go out and get players that fit the system.

I won't knock him as much about the defense - the kind of players they need do not grow on trees, and he has made efforts each of the last two offseason to get them. But I don't think he has the right mix on the offensive side either, and that should have been in his controllable. The pieces individually are nice, they just don't blend well together.
- TheGreat28

It's definitely two fold. Holmgren failed last summer, before the lockout, to acquire guys that were good fits for Laviolette's system. The trouble is, that Laviolette didn't make adjustments until the defense was reduced to AHL caliber.

This summer, he got guys that could better fit Laviolette's system. Streit's a good passer and very good puck carrier. Lecavalier can play in a high pressure attack system. But the fundamental flaws of the system have been exposed and if the system is not played with vigorous discipline to detail, it gets shredded by disciplined teams.

A lot of the successes against the Penguins over the past 3 years came from the Flyers getting the Pens off their game, and exploiting the their lack of discipline.

My initial response to Berube would be

But, I'd be open to seeing what he could do. If they do go in house, I'd rather see Murray as an interim, brought in to instill discipline and responsible two way play.

He's obviously not a long term choice, but the guy is a capable coach that can help teams play better two way hockey.

My concern with Berube is two fold. One, he's never been a head coach. I have no idea if he's capable or not. The second concern is, he's already on the staff. The team is an undisciplined mess. Some of the fingerprints belong to him.
- Jsaquella

1st bold yup!!
2nd bold double yup!!

maybe Hextall was brought back for an eventual culture change?

3 losses in a row on top of a crappy pre-season definitely shortens Lavi's plank. I wouldn't be at all surprised that if they lose tonight management makes the decision to pull the plug on him sooner rather than later, and only a serious winning streak will stop the headman's axe.
- wolfhounds

Laviolette is toast.

Scrambling his lines last night shows desperation. The pre-season is where a coach scrambles lines to look for chemistry.

Game two of the regular season is not the place to mix and match lines. If the players do not respond to a coach's message in game 2 of the season--or if the coach is already second-guessing his line combinations--well--he has either failed to prepare his team, failed in his evaluations, or his team is no longer interested in his message.

Like they say... its not about having the best players.. its about having the right players.

We also bought into the hype that B. Schenn was some kind of 2nd coming of Richards. It could be that Schenn and Coots really aren't anything special.
- Flyersgod

Still too early to tell for sure, but the last real success in the regular season we had was with Richards Carter and Bob in 2010-11. At mid season, we were right at the top of the league. We played well in 2011-12 for the most part, but it's starting to look like there were 3 bad trades that set us back in dealing those 3 guys to essentially bring in Bryz and forward depth.

The ONLY way I go with Berube is as an interim coach in a lost season (which I now see as a possibility). Get someone outside the org. Imagine if we had gotten a guy like DeBoer? What he could do with this talent?

I think it was one of the hockey central sportsnet guys who said he thought that Montreal is a borderline playoff team and that Philly was in major trouble after the first game. I thought he was out to lunch, but now I think they might be spot on.
- Hextall271

I'd love to snag DeBoer. I think he's a fantastic coach.

The Flyers are in trouble, but they need to be smart about what they do, because it is fixable. Dumping guys because they didn't or couldn't execute in Laviolette's system and then firing Laviolette is one step forward, two steps back.

I agree to this. Homer has done a lot for the team, but this is as much on him as it is on Lavy. Time for a new direction. It was wise to bring Hextall in so now we have a succession plan. In a perfect world, I would change the coach during the season if possible (interim guy), then let Hexy learn the prospects etc, and get a feel for what we have and what we need. Let Homer go in the offseason. Get a solid coach from junior or the AHL and go from there. Another issue is that we've used the buyouts so it will be harder for Hexy to fix this mess if he wants to make big changes. Hope the cap goes up.
- Hextall271

I wouldn't be worried about the buyouts. Sans Pronger we really don't have any single long term contracts killing us anymore. Hartnell maybe, but thats a tradable contract should it ever come to that.

Let Kimmo and Mesz walk with the cap going up. No reason to worry about cap room. Just the FAs who will be available.

It's definitely two fold. Holmgren failed last summer, before the lockout, to acquire guys that were good fits for Laviolette's system. The trouble is, that Laviolette didn't make adjustments until the defense was reduced to AHL caliber.

This summer, he got guys that could better fit Laviolette's system. Streit's a good passer and very good puck carrier. Lecavalier can play in a high pressure attack system. But the fundamental flaws of the system have been exposed and if the system is not played with vigorous discipline to detail, it gets shredded by disciplined teams.

A lot of the successes against the Penguins over the past 3 years came from the Flyers getting the Pens off their game, and exploiting the their lack of discipline.
- Jsaquella

The Flyers continue their quest to win the 2009-10 Stanley Cup, rather than accept that the league, clubs, and systems have changed.

Laviolette is toast.

Scrambling his lines last night shows desperation. The pre-season is where a coach scrambles lines to look for chemistry.

Game two of the regular season is not the place to mix and match lines. If the players do not respond to a coach's message in game 2 of the season--or if the coach is already second-guessing his line combinations--well--he has either failed to prepare his team, failed in his evaluations, or his team is no longer interested in his message.
- Moose_15

that Voracek on the 3rd line thing pisses me off just for starters, the chemistry Voracek had last season with Giroux & you split them?
if you wanted production from Couts then you move him up & don't acquire Vinny for "5 bite us in the ass" years.
what's the plan?

he starts Voracek on the 3rd line 2 games in a row, no 5 on 5 goals & then moves him back to the 1st line by the 1/2 way point.
It's starting to look like a dartboard is making the decisions.

Still too early to tell for sure, but the last real success in the regular season we had was with Richards Carter and Bob in 2010-11. At mid season, we were right at the top of the league. We played well in 2011-12 for the most part, but it's starting to look like there were 3 bad trades that set us back in dealing those 3 guys to essentially bring in Bryz and forward depth.
- Hextall271

The Flyers had 103 points in 2011-12. That was the sixth best point total in the NHL. That's pretty successful.

They got good value in the Carter and Richards trades, but they definitely miss the two way game that Richards brought. Even Carter was a solid and capable two way forward.

Thus far, Schenn hasn't replicated his two way play as a stud in juniors and Couturier hasn't been able to find offensive success. There's a developmental curve at play, but also, there's issues in how they have been utilized.

I'd love to snag DeBoer. I think he's a fantastic coach.

The Flyers are in trouble, but they need to be smart about what they do, because it is fixable. Dumping guys because they didn't or couldn't execute in Laviolette's system and then firing Laviolette is one step forward, two steps back.
- Jsaquella

Good points. I think hextall will do the right things here. I suspect we can't have deboer but we can get a promising coach fr junior or the a.

The Flyers had 103 points in 2011-12. That was the sixth best point total in the NHL. That's pretty successful.

They got good value in the Carter and Richards trades, but they definitely miss the two way game that Richards brought. Even Carter was a solid and capable two way forward.

Thus far, Schenn hasn't replicated his two way play as a stud in juniors and Couturier hasn't been able to find offensive success. There's a developmental curve at play, but also, there's issues in how they have been utilized.
- Jsaquella

I want to be clear, this is the hand we've been dealt now so be patient and really see what these guys can be. Don't trade them. I'm just thinking the trades have not worked as planned here

The Flyers continue their quest to win the 2009-10 Stanley Cup, rather than accept that the league, clubs, and systems have changed.
- Moose_15

It's true. I still think they can be a playoff team, but they need to get it together, ASAP. Start implementing changes now, demand better 200 foot hockey and strict discipline to all facets of the game.

They can't keep running around and expect it to get better. This was my biggest fear when they decided NOT to make a coaching change last year.